to NOT think women's rights are being attacked?

[MissPrimaryCrafts]

Wanted to namechange in case this turns into a bloodbath but new users not being accepted so we'll see how it goes!

I realise this could be a bit provocative but I'm not looking for an argument, I just genuinely am finding it hard to understand the other side of this so would genuinely like a polite dicussion so I can understand better. Apologies in advance if it sparks natiness in replies

The issue being transphobia and womens rights...I've seen a lot of talk in threads recently about how 'anyone standing up for women is apparantly and transphobe and TERF' and that women are losing their rights and I just don't see how.

I assume the main issue is with allowing trans women into female only spaces, and people feeling like it's no longer really a 'female only' space as men could just say they're a woman and be allowed in?

I understand this as being a problem...but only to an extent. Firstly I feel like I wonder how much more access this would actually give men? Like honestly, if a man is going to go a commit a crime against a woman, is seeing a 'women only' sign on a changing room door really going to stop him? Is he really going to pretend to identify as a woman to enter the space, or is he just going to enter the space? Does allowing trans women really change things?

Also, if that IS your issue with allowing trans people into female only spaces, then your issue isn't with trans women, it's with men. If you're worried about men entering the space by 'pretending' to be trans, then the potential problems are because of men, not because of trans women. So surely there are better ways to address our issues with men committing crimes than to make sure trans women are excluded from certain spaces? Aren't there other ways we as a society can address the prevalence of crimes against women?

Of course - this is all if you 'believe' that being trans is a real thing, I'm aware many people don't think it's real and I think that's a separate issue. But if you think trans people do 'exist'/it is a real thing, but you want to bar them from female only spaces, I just wonder why? What do you think of the above?

Sorry this is an essay!

This is spot on

@toocold54

If a person claiming to be trans wanted to use the female changing room of say a gym, there is nothing stopped them going in and watching women dress.

There is nothing stopping a lesbian watching a women dress either though.

Lesbians don't have dicks.

Especially as a third of the 3.4k woman sex prisoners in the UK are in for Council Tax evasion.

And there are half this number again of male sex prisoners currently identifying as transwomen, according to HM Prison Office.

So if you release all those council tax defaulting women by sex, you could fit a good 1.1k male sex prisoners in to those women sex prisons. 2 women by sex to each male by sex.

In a space that is supposed to be for women by sex (a protected characteristic).

The solution? Shuffle the prisons around to have a safe facility just for transwomen. Specially equipped for any specific needs.

It is not difficult.

Neither is more important. Both are equal.

@chickenyhead

Separate safe spaces for transwomen. Equally equipped and provided for. Maybe even providing targeted support for any specific trans issues. A trans safe place.

Exactly, us women have had to fight for our spaces, (including public toilets which did not exist before mid Victorian times, google the urinary leash) ,DV Refuges did not exist before Erin Pizzey set up the first one in the UK in 1971. No one actually handed us safe spaces on a plate, or indeed insisted that other people had to shift over to accommodate us.

I suspect that in fact many women would actually be vocal and supportive if the trans community got its act together and started agitating for trans safe spaces. I don’t understand why they don’t, they seem to be perfectly capable of mobilising themselves and getting support , maybe Stonewall ought to be thinking about this to recoup some of the moral high ground they have so disastrously lost in recent months.

I agree with you OP. I am also confused by this issue and don’t feel women’s rights are under attack by allowing trans women into a women only space.

Why the actual fuck are we jailing anyone for council tax evasion?

@Lefthousewithpooinhair

I agree with you OP. I am also confused by this issue and don’t feel women’s rights are under attack by allowing trans women into a women only space.

If yuo're confused have you considered that you just don't know enough about how women's rights are under attack?

I see plenty of women basically saying "I don't any of the issues here, but you're wrong #bekind". LEARN first, then talk.

@Lefthousewithpooinhair

I agree with you OP. I am also confused by this issue and don’t feel women’s rights are under attack by allowing trans women into a women only space.

You can’t see the issue with a trans woman with a penis being in a women’s refuge where many women have just escaped violence, sexual assaulted and rape?

don't know any

@Ghosttile

Why the actual fuck are we jailing anyone for council tax evasion?

Women by sex get jailed for it at a much higher rate than males by sex.

Yes. I am exclusionary, that is, I want women's spaces to be for women and girls, not for men. No matter what the men 'feel'. But I don't want transwomen to suffer. They need their own space, and that should be provided.

I don't think that will satisfy them, though, because the big kick is from 'passing' as women (or alternatively, riding roughshod over women's feelings - two different approaches with the same effect), which they think they are doing if they intrude into women's spaces.

Would you like your elderly mum to be cared for/bathed/dressed/undressed by a person with a penis? Or have your mammogram or smear with one?

We also don't just automatically fancy every nude woman 🙄

don't make us lesbians out to be some sort of perverse, perving at every opportunity group of people 🙄

Murder being illegal doesn't stop people murdering.

So let's make murder legal.

Stupid argument yeah?

That’s absolutely insane. A quick google suggests it’s only in England.

@RaindropsOnRosie

It's only transphobes who believe women are being attacked. The same people who use the sex/gender excuse to hide their transphobia. Bunch of idiots who should stay in their own lanes and ever so kindly fuck off.

Eh?

@RaindropsOnRosie

It's only transphobes who believe women are being attacked. The same people who use the sex/gender excuse to hide their transphobia. Bunch of idiots who should stay in their own lanes and ever so kindly fuck off.

Well, that would be ideal. We’d love to stay in our own, female, lane. Except, now our lane is being encroached by males.

It's only misogynists who believe transwomen are being attacked. The same people who use the sex/gender excuse to hide their misogyny. Bunch of idiots who should stay in their own lanes and ever so kindly fuck off.

It’s a bit ignorant and dismissive to just say ‘your wrong, LEARN first’
I don’t see an issue with it, and I’m just as entitled to my opinion as you are. It’s unfortunate that our opinions don’t align.

I know most men aren't perverts.
I know most men aren't dangerous.
I know most men aren't rapists.

I just don't know how to tell by looking alone.

We all assume that there is a potential for a man to attack us, so if we're getting on a train late at night we have a little voice telling us to get into a more crowded carriage than the one with just one or two men in it. No one says that's bad, in fact we're told that's the right thing to do. Do men jump up and down complaining that we assume they're all dangerous? No they don't, they know damn well it's the sensible thing to do if a woman wants to keep herself safe.

This is because men don't have 'PERVERT' or 'RAPIST' or 'DANGEROUS TO BOYS UNDER 12' or whaatever, tattooed on their foreheads. Perhaps they should?

@DoingItMyself

Yes. I am exclusionary, that is, I want women's spaces to be for women and girls, not for men. No matter what the men 'feel'. But I don't want transwomen to suffer. They need their own space, and that should be provided.

I don't think that will satisfy them, though, because the big kick is from 'passing' as women (or alternatively, riding roughshod over women's feelings - two different approaches with the same effect), which they think they are doing if they intrude into women's spaces.

Trabswomen and women by sex are equal but not equivalent.

Services need to be provided for both. There is no reasonable excuse for either to trample on each others safe spaces. Ever.

Like you, I would fight for transwomen rights to safety, equal to, but separate from women by sex (a protected characteristic). As would most reasonable people.

I was attacked by a trans woman in a youth hostel supposedly all female dorm. Apparently I did something that annoyed them. Trans women are strong - it was a shockingly hard punch.

I would just stop jailing women then there would be loads of space.

@Lefthousewithpooinhair

I agree with you OP. I am also confused by this issue and don’t feel women’s rights are under attack by allowing trans women into a women only space.

Have you missed all these men who say they are trans weaponising their lady dick???

@TheDinosaurMum

We also don't just automatically fancy every nude woman 🙄

don't make us lesbians out to be some sort of perverse, perving at every opportunity group of people 🙄

Lesbians are female. Males are responsible for the overwhelming majority of violent and sexual crimes in our country. Not lesbians. Not females. Lesbians pose no statistically larger threat than straight women. Don’t let the homophobic element of the TWAW sect make you think women believe otherwise.