to NOT think women's rights are being attacked?

[MissPrimaryCrafts]

Wanted to namechange in case this turns into a bloodbath but new users not being accepted so we'll see how it goes!

I realise this could be a bit provocative but I'm not looking for an argument, I just genuinely am finding it hard to understand the other side of this so would genuinely like a polite dicussion so I can understand better. Apologies in advance if it sparks natiness in replies

The issue being transphobia and womens rights...I've seen a lot of talk in threads recently about how 'anyone standing up for women is apparantly and transphobe and TERF' and that women are losing their rights and I just don't see how.

I assume the main issue is with allowing trans women into female only spaces, and people feeling like it's no longer really a 'female only' space as men could just say they're a woman and be allowed in?

I understand this as being a problem...but only to an extent. Firstly I feel like I wonder how much more access this would actually give men? Like honestly, if a man is going to go a commit a crime against a woman, is seeing a 'women only' sign on a changing room door really going to stop him? Is he really going to pretend to identify as a woman to enter the space, or is he just going to enter the space? Does allowing trans women really change things?

Also, if that IS your issue with allowing trans people into female only spaces, then your issue isn't with trans women, it's with men. If you're worried about men entering the space by 'pretending' to be trans, then the potential problems are because of men, not because of trans women. So surely there are better ways to address our issues with men committing crimes than to make sure trans women are excluded from certain spaces? Aren't there other ways we as a society can address the prevalence of crimes against women?

Of course - this is all if you 'believe' that being trans is a real thing, I'm aware many people don't think it's real and I think that's a separate issue. But if you think trans people do 'exist'/it is a real thing, but you want to bar them from female only spaces, I just wonder why? What do you think of the above?

Sorry this is an essay!

And for all those saying it's okay if they don't have their penises, you cannot make a law which is dependent on men having expensive and often unsuccessful major surgery.

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

I note that OP posted the question and hasn't returned to the thread in 11 pages.

That's interesting, isn't it?

It's probably by one of the people who love to slate Mumsnet on Twitter as being transphobic. They love to use Mumsnet for a discussion because shock horror, not everyone feels the same as they do 🙄

@Ghosttile

’then the potential problems are because of men, not because of trans women. So surely there are better ways to address our issues with men committing crimes than to make sure trans women are excluded from certain spaces? Aren't there other ways we as a society can address the prevalence of crimes against women?’

I’d love to hear your ideas on that

Me too!

OP if you don’t think it’s important to protect the rights of women then think about this very basic scenario -

Are you happy for your vulnerable 80 year old mother to be told that she CANNOT refuse to be intimately examined by a man in hospital.

That she has NO right, no legal fucking right to request a female nurse to perform intimate examinations or care.

Your 80 year old mother is distressed and embarrassed and absolutely fucking distraught at having to show herself to a man because she has no right to request a female nurse.

Are you happy to be the one to tell her she’s a transphobe for wanting women only provisions?

What about your daughter, your best friend, your sister being raped and turning to a rape support service / charity and being met with a man.

You ok telling her she’s a transphobe for wanting to protect safe spaces for females?

The issue isn’t men wanting to live as women , it is men demanding entry into our safe and protected spaces when they aren’t women. If you wish to live as a woman then more power to you, but you don’t need to work in a rape crisis centre. You don’t need to be a girl guide leader, you don’t need to compete in women’s sports.

Wear your frock and crack on. But stay out of places which are not made for penises. Unless you’re willing to go full bottom surgery. Which, surprise surprise most are not.

You can't change sex. And gender is essentially just sex based stereotypes i.e. women wear dresses and wear makeup. You cannot know what it is to be a female unless you are one. The only thing you can share about being female when you are not is the stereotypes we find placed on us by society.

You are not a woman because you dress like one and ask others to call you she. You are not a woman simply because you associate more with the stereotypes placed on women.

You are not a woman unless you were born a woman.

It's all about stereotypes which is why the "man in a dress" comes up.

I feel really unsure about this as I do think being trans is a 'real' thing and 90% of trans people just want to blend in and go about their lives. But then I think there's a different type of trans mtf person, which I don't see as particularly valid - entitled, exhibitionist - and I do object to sharing intimate spaces with someone like this. More for others (e.g. young girls) than myself. So I think self ID is the issue really, because it gives a sense of entitlement to those who want to push women's boundaries.

The other area which I think is incredibly difficult to make fair and equitable is sports. I'm afraid I can't see any alternative other than mtf trans athletes playing in male, mixed sex or trans competitions, not in the female categories. I know for some people that's akin to killing a puppy but imo, male and female sex categories exist for a very good reason. If someone is going to have hurt feelings about that, I'd rather it wasn't a woman who has put everything into reaching the top of her sport and lost out to someone with physical advantages that should place them in a separate category. I feel that's no less unfair than allowing able bodied athletes to compete in the paralymics.

@chickenyhead

Transwomen and transmen get sexually abused terribly in male sex prisons. Because men by sex are most likely to commit sex crimes.

So, why is it ok to put male sex prisoners (many being ex sex offenders against women) in women by sex prisons?

It isn't ok for either group, transwomen or women by sex, to be forced to accept such risks.

Both equally deserve protection.

One is not more important than the other.

But what about other men who will be very vulnerable to attack and abuse in men's prisons. Transwomen are definitely not the only class of vulnerable male who will be abused in a men's prison.

Do we let thosd vulnerable males into female prisons too?

Women, and women's provisions, do not just exist in order to shield certain males from the violence of other males. They are for women.

@Feelingoktoday

Why should women and girls lose their sport places to a man?

Because feelz.

Ben Cohen is pretty unhappy with MN today. Wonder if that's linked, anon.

The OP did come back under a different account near the beginning of the thread, it wasnt a total plop and run.

Also, if that IS your issue with allowing trans people into female only spaces, then your issue isn't with trans women, it's with men

Transwomen are men.

Oh, thanks, Tiny.

I'm a bit bored of the baiting for screenshots. There seems to have been a lot of it of late.

GoldieLow

Fantastic post I completely agree.

Other vulnerable men by sex in men's prisons is an issue for those prisons to deal with.

Men of all kinds fall under the male sex as a protected characteristic. There is no conflict.

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

Ben Cohen is pretty unhappy with MN today. Wonder if that's linked, anon.

Well if it is, I'll wave too 👋

Have you ever been raped or sexually assaulted op?

You can’t change sex.

Never thought of it like this but actually agree with you. I have NOTHING against trans women, but I don't trust men.

I do however think that some men may take advantage. It seems like such an obvious way of trying to see women's bits.

So I don't know what the solution is.

If you're worried about men entering the space by 'pretending' to be trans, then the potential problems are because of men, not because of trans women

Precisely. But what’s the difference between a pre-op transwoman and a man?

@chickenyhead

Other vulnerable men by sex in men's prisons is an issue for those prisons to deal with.

Men of all kinds fall under the male sex as a protected characteristic. There is no conflict.

Transwomen are of the male sex. Why are other vulnerable males the problem of the men's prisons, but transwomen go to the women's prison? Based on what?

As you say, sex is a protected characteristic, so women's prisons should be protected by that, and kept for people of the female sex only.

@HotPenguin

Would you like your daughter to be looked after on brownie camp by an 18 year old male born person who claims to be female and who is sleeping in the same room as them? That's more of a problem to me than anything happening in a shop changing room.

We don't sleep in the same rooms as ours. I'd be alarmed if any of us leaders were asked to. It's a safeguarding issue and we do not sleep in with our brownies. You might want to get your head round what is and is not permitted under girl guiding rules, before using our organisation as a so-called example in your anti trans stuff, thanks. It's insulting.

So what do you say to a muslim woman who can no longer swim in her local pool during the women's only swim because anatomically intact males (who self-identify as women) are using it then? Her religious beliefs require segregated swimming. I'd argue that to deny her the right to swim is racist.

The Stonewall perpetuated idea that "its only changing rooms" is rubbish. NOT IT isn't.

Women have been subjugated for thousands of years. I guess it is grimly amusing that within decades of the Feminist movement, misogynists have found a way to erase us completely.

I have so much sympathy for trans people. They don't fit in with the gender stereotypes of this world.

But their solution is to pretend biology and sex doesn't exist. The stereotypes are the problem, not our bodies or biology. Wear what you want, shag who you want, call yourself Barbara...but don't pretend you're the same as a biological woman. It's insulting, factually incorrect and so vulnerable to abuse

Separate safe spaces for transwomen. Equally equipped and provided for. Maybe even providing targeted support for any specific trans issues. A trans safe place.