to NOT think women's rights are being attacked?

[MissPrimaryCrafts]

Wanted to namechange in case this turns into a bloodbath but new users not being accepted so we'll see how it goes!

I realise this could be a bit provocative but I'm not looking for an argument, I just genuinely am finding it hard to understand the other side of this so would genuinely like a polite dicussion so I can understand better. Apologies in advance if it sparks natiness in replies

The issue being transphobia and womens rights...I've seen a lot of talk in threads recently about how 'anyone standing up for women is apparantly and transphobe and TERF' and that women are losing their rights and I just don't see how.

I assume the main issue is with allowing trans women into female only spaces, and people feeling like it's no longer really a 'female only' space as men could just say they're a woman and be allowed in?

I understand this as being a problem...but only to an extent. Firstly I feel like I wonder how much more access this would actually give men? Like honestly, if a man is going to go a commit a crime against a woman, is seeing a 'women only' sign on a changing room door really going to stop him? Is he really going to pretend to identify as a woman to enter the space, or is he just going to enter the space? Does allowing trans women really change things?

Also, if that IS your issue with allowing trans people into female only spaces, then your issue isn't with trans women, it's with men. If you're worried about men entering the space by 'pretending' to be trans, then the potential problems are because of men, not because of trans women. So surely there are better ways to address our issues with men committing crimes than to make sure trans women are excluded from certain spaces? Aren't there other ways we as a society can address the prevalence of crimes against women?

Of course - this is all if you 'believe' that being trans is a real thing, I'm aware many people don't think it's real and I think that's a separate issue. But if you think trans people do 'exist'/it is a real thing, but you want to bar them from female only spaces, I just wonder why? What do you think of the above?

Sorry this is an essay!

If you have a penis you shouldn't be in private spaces for those who haven't.
If you haven't got a penis you shouldn't be in private spaces for those who do.

It's not rocket science, I don't want my granddaughters to go to the loo or changing rooms and see penis's and it would happen.

I've no objection to anybody being who they want to be, living life how they want to. But to me genitalia should be the same in certain places.

Why would you never advocate for mixed spaces @camaleon? I’d interested in your answer bearing in mind you seemingly cannot understand the issue with women who were born male in female spaces.

I agree there is no safe place for trans women at the moment, and we need to resolve that. Unfortunately I don’t think the solution is as simple as ignoring the role of sex in violence against women.

No is a complete sentence

Why hasn't this been moved?

Transwomen and transmen get sexually abused terribly in male sex prisons. Because men by sex are most likely to commit sex crimes.

So, why is it ok to put male sex prisoners (many being ex sex offenders against women) in women by sex prisons?

It isn't ok for either group, transwomen or women by sex, to be forced to accept such risks.

Both equally deserve protection.

One is not more important than the other.

Why hasn't this been moved to the other board? Are posts only being moved if op is gc?

The nastiness and vilification of trans women on this site breaks my heart

And this is the problem.

Because if you don't immediately accept and agree then you're "nasty".

No I am not, I have an opinion which doesn't match your own, get over it.

Women's sports are being won by biological males. Women's prizes are being taken by biological males. Women's shelters and women's prisons - places that house those who have been victimised and traumatised by biological males - are being used by biological males. Why is this not considered something to question?

I have other questions too. Like, why is all the emphasis put on allowing biological males to take women's spaces, WHEN MOST TRANS PEOPLE ARE BIOLOGICAL FEMALES TRANSITIONING TO MALE?? Yes that's shouting. It's a fact that seems to be blithely ignored by all those falling over themselves telling women to be kind to males, and that annoys me. Another would be WHY ARE SO MANY BIOLOGICAL FEMALES TRANSITIONING TO MALE?

if that IS your issue with allowing trans people into female only spaces, then your issue isn't with trans women, it's with men

I actually agree with this, because it's correct, my issue is with men pushing themselves into female spaces. If you think it doesn't happen then you are, quite frankly, either excessively sheltered or insane. Why do you think we have DBS checks in schools or elsewhere?? Why do we need protections against men? Why are most criminals male, and over 99% of sex offenders male? Why are 50% - HALF - of the "trans" offenders wanting to push their way into female prisons sex offenders male?

"Can we not find a better way to deal with male violence" - go on then, find it. You could start with stopping porn and prostitution. Have fun.

I meant, to clarify, that at the moment there are no specific safe places for transwomen either (unless we are of course happy to tolerate violence against them)

Violence - to be clear - toward them BY MEN = so if transwomen need protection from MEN why are women not afforded the same care? Why are we expected to open our safe spaces to men?

Okay @illuminatethis / @MissPrimaryCrafts

Several posters have mentioned Karen White. Either:
a) White pretended to be trans to be able to access vulnerable women to rape and sexually assault them
Or
b) White is trans and used his trans status in order to access vulnerable women to rape and sexually assault them.

Which do you think it is? Do you think White's victims care whether it's a) or b)? Do you think they should?

I am pretty sure it is impossible to change sex no matter how a person identifies. A man is born male and dies male. How he chooses to live his life within the law is up to him, but no, he cannot share our female only spaces.

I find gender a very dodgy and old fashioned concept and certainly would not want to hand over any hard fought rights on the ideology that a man 'feels' female. I mean what does that even mean?

@ghostyslovesheets

boys are children

male violence is male violence even if the male is wearing a dress

Please don;t lecture women on oppression and lack of access to rights while we are being silenced, oppressed and our rights eroded by trans activists

Don't tell me what I can say or not. Apparently you are happy to shut up orders, so we can all listen to you; I bet you belong to those with a mic much bigger than average. The 'male in a dress' shit is quite something.

@cricketmum84

The nastiness and vilification of trans women on this site breaks my heart.

I'm ashamed of the attitudes some women have on here.

That’s your opinion and feeling and that’s fine, for you.

So why aren't trans rights activists campaigning for third spaces then?

Because then the illusion that they'd successfully changed sex would be shattered.

@WrongWayApricot

Why hasn't this been moved to the other board? Are posts only being moved if op is gc?

Because sidelining it means the discussion becomes an echo chamber.

Definitely there is a problem with men. Male bodied people should feel safe to be in spaces (eg changing rooms, prisons) with other male bodied people without being attacked or made to feel uncomfortable by male bodied people. Men need to take a long hard look at themselves and take responsiblity for fixing what is their problem.

What is NOT the solution is to make women’s spaces part of this problem.

How there is no nastiness or vilification on here that I can see, and that my opinion and feeling.

@cricketmum84

The nastiness and vilification of trans women on this site breaks my heart.

I'm ashamed of the attitudes some women have on here.

Nastiness because people have a different opinion to you?

how would you define an act of violence perpetrated by someone with a penis?

For me personally the waysbI feel womens' rights are being eroded/attacked are as follows,

1. Women being unable to compete fairly in sports without incurring injury or being at a clear physical disadvantage

1. The use of the word "woman" beginning to be considered taboo in documentation

1. The right for women to state or discuss our views without being insulted, verbally attacked or ignored

I note that OP posted the question and hasn't returned to the thread in 11 pages.

That's interesting, isn't it?

they have returned - they conveniently name changed

@Clymene

Okay *@illuminatethis / @MissPrimaryCrafts*

Several posters have mentioned Karen White. Either:
a) White pretended to be trans to be able to access vulnerable women to rape and sexually assault them
Or
b) White is trans and used his trans status in order to access vulnerable women to rape and sexually assault them.

Which do you think it is? Do you think White's victims care whether it's a) or b)? Do you think they should?

Brilliant points.

@toocold54

If a person claiming to be trans wanted to use the female changing room of say a gym, there is nothing stopped them going in and watching women dress.

There is nothing stopping a lesbian watching a women dress either though.

I'll take my chances against a lesbian over an intact male person. The male is statistically far more likely to be dangerous, and able to overpower me.

Why should women and girls lose their sport places to a man?