to NOT think women's rights are being attacked?

[MissPrimaryCrafts]

Wanted to namechange in case this turns into a bloodbath but new users not being accepted so we'll see how it goes!

I realise this could be a bit provocative but I'm not looking for an argument, I just genuinely am finding it hard to understand the other side of this so would genuinely like a polite dicussion so I can understand better. Apologies in advance if it sparks natiness in replies

The issue being transphobia and womens rights...I've seen a lot of talk in threads recently about how 'anyone standing up for women is apparantly and transphobe and TERF' and that women are losing their rights and I just don't see how.

I assume the main issue is with allowing trans women into female only spaces, and people feeling like it's no longer really a 'female only' space as men could just say they're a woman and be allowed in?

I understand this as being a problem...but only to an extent. Firstly I feel like I wonder how much more access this would actually give men? Like honestly, if a man is going to go a commit a crime against a woman, is seeing a 'women only' sign on a changing room door really going to stop him? Is he really going to pretend to identify as a woman to enter the space, or is he just going to enter the space? Does allowing trans women really change things?

Also, if that IS your issue with allowing trans people into female only spaces, then your issue isn't with trans women, it's with men. If you're worried about men entering the space by 'pretending' to be trans, then the potential problems are because of men, not because of trans women. So surely there are better ways to address our issues with men committing crimes than to make sure trans women are excluded from certain spaces? Aren't there other ways we as a society can address the prevalence of crimes against women?

Of course - this is all if you 'believe' that being trans is a real thing, I'm aware many people don't think it's real and I think that's a separate issue. But if you think trans people do 'exist'/it is a real thing, but you want to bar them from female only spaces, I just wonder why? What do you think of the above?

Sorry this is an essay!

@cricketmum84

The nastiness and vilification of trans women on this site breaks my heart.

I'm ashamed of the attitudes some women have on here.

Well of course we should know our place. Let’s be kind girls.

And the saddest part is how many women I know who are actually scared to stand up for themselves and say how they really feel about this subject for fear of being absolutely trashed and being labelled phobic.

It's like gaining favour for a cause through threat really. Agree with us or we'll label you a transphobe and you'll be shunned, called names and hated ect...

Not something I want to be a part of.

@cricketmum84

The nastiness and vilification of trans women on this site breaks my heart.

I'm ashamed of the attitudes some women have on here.

What nastiness? Genuinely. What is nasty on this thread?

Yes.. I do believe it is incredibly offensive to use examples of some violent trans to make arguments about all trans. This was my point: the use of these examples is incredibly offensive per se and not a way of addressing women's rights or trans rights.

But presumably you think its OK to stop men from entering women's spaces based on the actions of some men? For example my husband is a lovely man and definitely not a danger to women, but presumably you are with him being banned from women's spaces?

Or do you think that all spaces should just be mixed sex?

And yet Too Cold the women present are statistically unlikely to have been victims of sexual assault at the hands of a lesbian. They are unlikely to be future victims but when that presence is male that picture rather changes. That does some what change the ambience.

We fought so hard for our rights, yet are seemingly happy to hand most of them over?! I don't understand it.

@cricketmum84

The nastiness and vilification of trans women on this site breaks my heart.

I'm ashamed of the attitudes some women have on here.

Do you accept though that wanting a conversation about the role of trans women in feminism, and the need to ensure that sex as an axis of oppression is not eroded, is not nasty and does not vilify anyone?

Transwomen are males, they can’t change sex however much they try and say they can. Males belong in male spaces, they do not get to go in female only spaces to validate their feelings. It’s not difficult. If they’re that bothered about going in male only areas they can fight for transgender areas.

i would be interesting to see how many biological women commit sexually motivated crimes against other women, wouldn't it? Almost all of them are committed by biological men, hence why I wouldn't know nor care if a lesbian watched me dress, as it's not a risk to my safety.

Those stats are unfortunately now skewed.

It will be interesting to see how long this thread lasts in AIBU ...hopefully long enough for lots of women to see what’s going on.

They don’t want third spaces, they want ours for validation, kinks etc

Yes, the issue is with men.
But... Transwomen ARE men.

Women's rights are not just being attacked or harmed by those lobbying for those born male who wish to be regarded as female, whether or not they have had gender reassignment surgery. Just look at the male bias of almost all the decisions over the pandemic, how male activities have been prioritised, the misogyny of some police, for example.

I am also loving spacegoats

It's an exhausting argument and I think it difficult to accept that both sides have completely valid concerns and wants but they will always conflict, and one has to lose.

I'm a feminist, women's rights are still nowhere near what they should be and it's outrageous. We're not equal to men and we are always in danger from men.

That being said, I also believe very strongly in trans rights and equality too. I have a trans person in my life who is very close to me and they are wonderful.

It's a difficult one to balance because I meet a lot of transphobic feminists (not women scared for their rights but who genuinely hate trans people and deny their existence) and I meet trans activists who hate feminists and believe they're all transphobic. But there are way more on both sides who agree with each other. I've met a lot more feminists who agree on trans rights and trans people fighting for feminism. The divide is not as big as social media makes out.

I do have a problem with self-ID. I worry for women's refugee centres who can accept people without formal documents on occasions proving who they are because circumstances leave them in that situation, but their violent exes can do the same and claim to be trans and the refugee centre wouldn't know. I worry about a lot of it.
But trans people face a lot of problems on the "not having a penis" part that some people so desperately cling onto. NHS wait times can be years for some people depending where they live. And its even more dangerous to expect them to use men's toilets when trans people face violence and harassment from men too.

I don't know what the solution is. If we put something in place for trans people to have to jump through hoops to be able to identify as trans you can bet the government will mess it up and underfund the process and it'll take forever and be filled with impossible tasks.

People on here are right. It's not trans people. It's the issue of men who could identify as trans to hurt women. I don't know how to stop that without attacking trans peoples rights. It's hurtful either way to one or the other.

I think there is no place for transwomen and in most cases, the law as it is, should be able to protect them offering them spaces that are open to them while we continue to have a world divided by sex where they don't fit.

I would personally have no problem with mixed sex spaces, but I totally get why this is not an option to many people and I would never adovate for this.

Male violence is much bigger than trans violence and equating them is also very very offensive. Because they are also part of a vulnerable group with their own history of discrimination and lack of access to rights.

I am also tired of 'let's protect women and children'. Are boys protected too? We are only talking about women here. Because boys will still be in the men's changing room. Or shall we do a different one for boys? Are we tolerating sexual abuse of boys who are not accepted in women changing rooms?

@GoldieLow

It's an exhausting argument and I think it difficult to accept that both sides have completely valid concerns and wants but they will always conflict, and one has to lose.

I'm a feminist, women's rights are still nowhere near what they should be and it's outrageous. We're not equal to men and we are always in danger from men.

That being said, I also believe very strongly in trans rights and equality too. I have a trans person in my life who is very close to me and they are wonderful.

It's a difficult one to balance because I meet a lot of transphobic feminists (not women scared for their rights but who genuinely hate trans people and deny their existence) and I meet trans activists who hate feminists and believe they're all transphobic. But there are way more on both sides who agree with each other. I've met a lot more feminists who agree on trans rights and trans people fighting for feminism. The divide is not as big as social media makes out.

I do have a problem with self-ID. I worry for women's refugee centres who can accept people without formal documents on occasions proving who they are because circumstances leave them in that situation, but their violent exes can do the same and claim to be trans and the refugee centre wouldn't know. I worry about a lot of it.
But trans people face a lot of problems on the "not having a penis" part that some people so desperately cling onto. NHS wait times can be years for some people depending where they live. And its even more dangerous to expect them to use men's toilets when trans people face violence and harassment from men too.

I don't know what the solution is. If we put something in place for trans people to have to jump through hoops to be able to identify as trans you can bet the government will mess it up and underfund the process and it'll take forever and be filled with impossible tasks.

People on here are right. It's not trans people. It's the issue of men who could identify as trans to hurt women. I don't know how to stop that without attacking trans peoples rights. It's hurtful either way to one or the other.

I agree with this. There is a conflict of rights.

The issue that I have with trans ideology is it denies that - There is no conflict between trans women and women rights because trans women are women etc. Until we accept that there is a conflict, and start discussing it respectfully to try and safeguard peoples rights as best as possible, in my opinion we are never going to get anywhere

I meant, to clarify, that at the moment there are no specific safe places for transwomen either (unless we are of course happy to tolerate violence against them)

Well blow me down, has the OP plopped and run
Female spaces, groups, statistics are not female if they include any males. It is that simple
Mixed sex or single sex

@Theluggage15

Transwomen are males, they can’t change sex however much they try and say they can. Males belong in male spaces, they do not get to go in female only spaces to validate their feelings. It’s not difficult. If they’re that bothered about going in male only areas they can fight for transgender areas.

Exactly.

Yet again women are expected to just "be kind" at the expense of themselves because a minority want their feelings validated. I am sorry but saying you're a woman, wearing a dress and forcing those around you to pretend you are in fact, a woman doesn't make you so. By all means call yourself whatever you like, wear whatever you like but you do not understand what it is to be a woman nor do you get to dominate female spaces because you want to feel validated that you are in fact a woman.

If it was about not being in toilets with cis men, then by all means lobby for trans only areas.

Totally agree with Goldielow.

Frankly, I'm less concerned about self-identifying "transwomen" feeling sad about not being allowed in female-only spaces than I am about the women who are being constantly told that they're ridiculous, hateful, or "phobic" to not want male genitals in their private spaces.

I don't believe TWAW. A woman is female. A TW is male. It's as simple as that, to me.

I understand this as being a problem...but only to an extent. Firstly I feel like I wonder how much more access this would actually give men? Like honestly, if a man is going to go a commit a crime against a woman, is seeing a 'women only' sign on a changing room door really going to stop him? Is he really going to pretend to identify as a woman to enter the space, or is he just going to enter the space? Does allowing trans women really change things?

Surely that's like saying we should never have any rules, laws, or preventative measures about anything because someone is always going to break them?

@camaleon

I meant, to clarify, that at the moment there are no specific safe places for transwomen either (unless we are of course happy to tolerate violence against them)

So why aren't trans rights activists campaigning for third spaces then?

boys are children

male violence is male violence even if the male is wearing a dress

Please don;t lecture women on oppression and lack of access to rights while we are being silenced, oppressed and our rights eroded by trans activists