to NOT think women's rights are being attacked?

[MissPrimaryCrafts]

Wanted to namechange in case this turns into a bloodbath but new users not being accepted so we'll see how it goes!

I realise this could be a bit provocative but I'm not looking for an argument, I just genuinely am finding it hard to understand the other side of this so would genuinely like a polite dicussion so I can understand better. Apologies in advance if it sparks natiness in replies

The issue being transphobia and womens rights...I've seen a lot of talk in threads recently about how 'anyone standing up for women is apparantly and transphobe and TERF' and that women are losing their rights and I just don't see how.

I assume the main issue is with allowing trans women into female only spaces, and people feeling like it's no longer really a 'female only' space as men could just say they're a woman and be allowed in?

I understand this as being a problem...but only to an extent. Firstly I feel like I wonder how much more access this would actually give men? Like honestly, if a man is going to go a commit a crime against a woman, is seeing a 'women only' sign on a changing room door really going to stop him? Is he really going to pretend to identify as a woman to enter the space, or is he just going to enter the space? Does allowing trans women really change things?

Also, if that IS your issue with allowing trans people into female only spaces, then your issue isn't with trans women, it's with men. If you're worried about men entering the space by 'pretending' to be trans, then the potential problems are because of men, not because of trans women. So surely there are better ways to address our issues with men committing crimes than to make sure trans women are excluded from certain spaces? Aren't there other ways we as a society can address the prevalence of crimes against women?

Of course - this is all if you 'believe' that being trans is a real thing, I'm aware many people don't think it's real and I think that's a separate issue. But if you think trans people do 'exist'/it is a real thing, but you want to bar them from female only spaces, I just wonder why? What do you think of the above?

Sorry this is an essay!

Women’s rights are under attack all the bloody time.

@toocold54

If a person claiming to be trans wanted to use the female changing room of say a gym, there is nothing stopped them going in and watching women dress.

There is nothing stopping a lesbian watching a women dress either though.

I would be interesting to see how many biological women commit sexually motivated crimes against other women, wouldn't it? Almost all of them are committed by biological men, hence why I wouldn't know nor care if a lesbian watched me dress, as it's not a risk to my safety.

@MissPrimaryCrafts

Wanted to namechange in case this turns into a bloodbath but new users not being accepted so we'll see how it goes!

I realise this could be a bit provocative but I'm not looking for an argument, I just genuinely am finding it hard to understand the other side of this so would genuinely like a polite dicussion so I can understand better. Apologies in advance if it sparks natiness in replies

The issue being transphobia and womens rights...I've seen a lot of talk in threads recently about how 'anyone standing up for women is apparantly and transphobe and TERF' and that women are losing their rights and I just don't see how.

I assume the main issue is with allowing trans women into female only spaces, and people feeling like it's no longer really a 'female only' space as men could just say they're a woman and be allowed in?

I understand this as being a problem...but only to an extent. Firstly I feel like I wonder how much more access this would actually give men? Like honestly, if a man is going to go a commit a crime against a woman, is seeing a 'women only' sign on a changing room door really going to stop him? Is he really going to pretend to identify as a woman to enter the space, or is he just going to enter the space? Does allowing trans women really change things?

Also, if that IS your issue with allowing trans people into female only spaces, then your issue isn't with trans women, it's with men. If you're worried about men entering the space by 'pretending' to be trans, then the potential problems are because of men, not because of trans women. So surely there are better ways to address our issues with men committing crimes than to make sure trans women are excluded from certain spaces? Aren't there other ways we as a society can address the prevalence of crimes against women?

Of course - this is all if you 'believe' that being trans is a real thing, I'm aware many people don't think it's real and I think that's a separate issue. But if you think trans people do 'exist'/it is a real thing, but you want to bar them from female only spaces, I just wonder why? What do you think of the above?

Sorry this is an essay!

Are you ok with trans identifying males who are convicted sexual predators being housed with female prisoners OP?

Are you ok with trans identifying males being allowed into womens refuges?

Are you ok with any man claiming to be trans to be allowed into female only spaces and letting their semi aroused dicks hang out in front of women and children?

Men are the problem. Trans identifying or not.

And if trans identifying males are worried about using the spaces for their own sex class, then why does that become our problem? And why are they allowed to feel that way but we are not??

However, this idea that all trans women are opportunistic sexual pervert

Point me to where anyone has said all trans women are opportunistic sexual perverts.

Look. Women have been oppressed for centuries, they have been treated unfairly and had their opinions, thoughts and feelings ignored for centuries. We deserve to be listened to, we deserve to have our privacy if that is what we want, we deserve to have our thoughts and feelings taken into consideration on issues, in particular those that affect us.

I will be damned if we are shunted and ignored again to appease a minority because they shout loudest and call whoever doesn't agree with them a phobe of this or that.

I am a woman, I do not want men in my private space or playing sports in our leagues or anything else that gets brought up. The women I know around me do not want this either and we fucking deserve to have that respected.

I don't know where that leaves a trans woman who wants to use women's toilets but you know what, it's not up to women to solve that nor is it up to them to go against what they are comfortable with in order to yet again appease the wants of men. We have been doing that long enough thank you. I don't have to just "be nice" and go against what I feel is right for myself to make other people feel better because I have a vagina.

The biggest risk group for biological women is biological men. Not transwomen specifically.

Yes, and transwomen are part of that risk group. Unless you can tell me the agreed upon, objective point at which transwomen leave that group?

I have not denied the fact that women are victim of sexual abuse. Unfortunately, I am very aware as many others from personal experience

The question was around whether or not you accept having someone who is noticeably male in a female space could be triggering to women, in particular those who have been assaulted. It may not be so to all survivors, but do you accept it is the case for some, or do you say no survivors

I don’t mean this rudely but if you don’t accept that a discussion about the role of sex in oppression, and the effect on women of changing protections to gender, is far from “nonsensical” then you oughtn't be telling people they know nothing about feminism. Working in the field of discrimination is literally my day job, by the way.

I’m sorry you’ve experienced sexual assault too and I mean that sincerely

I won’t claim to be the most knowledgeable about all the arguments involved. However, as someone who has spent ALOT of time in hospitals in various states of vulnerability, I would have felt scared to be on a ward with males. And I don’t relish the thought of having to do that in the future.

WendyYourExcellency glad you got it - I absolutely agree with you - I can't image any straight men would understand the struggles of bi and lesbian women - as the mother of a young lesbian the erosion of same sex attraction really bothers me.

*no survivors could be made to feel that way by a visibly male person being present

Sorry not sure what happened to the end of that sentence

Just watching this thread to see if it gets moved into the naughty corner.

It might not, you know, because it's been started from the other perspective.

A trans woman is a biological male who identifies as a female. Are you happy with other biological men having access to spaces where women may be vulnerable? Changing rooms? Prisons? Nightclub loos where women have had a few drinks?

There was a well cited case 2 weeks ago in the USA of a 'trans woman' walking around a changing room displaying their oh so female penis to a room full of women and children. There's a name for men who like to be exhibitionists but it would probably get me banned because it's more important to defend the rights of this 'woman' to display 'her' penis to a room full of women and children. I wonder why that might be?

the erasure of language pertaining to being female in medical care, for example

This is another one I don't understand - I see lots of women who take offense to phrases such as 'pregnant people' and I just don't understand the offence. I'm a person so this applies to me, I'm not offended at being referred to as a person?

And yet to misgender/dead name someone is unacceptable for GC women? But erasure of the sex called woman and all associated descriptions by the male sex is ok?

You are surely being deliberately obtuse

The nastiness and vilification of trans women on this site breaks my heart.

I'm ashamed of the attitudes some women have on here.

@Ooodlesofboodles

That men are violent. That women and children who are physically vulnerable need protection from them. That putting on a dress does not prevent a man from attacking and raping women. That men need to deal with male violence because it harms men too. Your comment likening this to Muslims is highly offensive by the way.

Yes.. I do believe it is incredibly offensive to use examples of some violent trans to make arguments about all trans. This was my point: the use of these examples is incredibly offensive per se and not a way of addressing women's rights or trans rights.

My point is that we are framing the discussion in a way that is offensive for everyone involved.

You can find this kind of approach with any minority: people who would find multiple examples about specific groups misbeheaving to justify their discriminatory views.

Do you really think it’s safe for transwomen who have been convicted of sexual offences against women committed while they were male, to be held in women’s prisons, OP?

Women have fought long and hard for the protections they have in law, from the Equalities Act to female-only safe spaces. I don’t see why any men should be allowed to override that by declaring themselves to be female.

Women are constantly under attack in all kinds of ways. Anything with a penis represents a potential threat because men are socialised to take what they want, when they want, how they want.

Letting men , however they present themselves, into spaces exclusively for women and girls is bind to be abused by perverts simple as that, it’s the thin end of the wedge as women have the right to say NO.
Same with trans women in female sports, as an excellent woman pointed out recently “ it’s not feelings that play sports, it’s bodies and women have the right to say no”
Why is NO not enough? !

@cricketmum84

The nastiness and vilification of trans women on this site breaks my heart.

I'm ashamed of the attitudes some women have on here.

So let's discuss then.

Put across some arguments and I will discuss them with you.

Posting about 'nastiness' and thinking that that will shut women up isn't going to work.

House! We’ve got to predatory lesbians

if you’re really OK with eg being called “a person who menustrates” or a “cervix haver” while men remain men or for prizes and programmes designed to redress the sexism women face across multiple industries being open to men and for fully intact males to be locked up with women just because they are a TW, then I can’t help you. As a PP said the misogyny is visible from space!!!

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread?pg=20

Another question, are you ok with all of these trans identified male crimes being classed as female when they are not?

However, this idea that all trans women are opportunistic sexual pervert I HATE this argument - not one person has said that not one - but the idea that men seeking an opportunity to groom, aduse, rape and hurt women WOULD use the clock of being trans as a tool is very real - that is what we fear.

Why can;t transwomen use men's facilities? 'because they are scared of men ...okay

Why don;t women want transwomen in their safe spaces? 'because they are afraid of men...TERF!!!!!

it's madness

After more than a century of trying, I really thought we'd got somewhere. It is beginning to feel like women have no rights at all any more.

It’s offensive to me to have male bodies, even in a dress , in spaces that are exclusively for women as I am an adult human female

Cloak FFS

@Rapskallion

Absolutely perfectly put. I have no idea how any woman could read what you said and not agree. I am sick to death of being accused of being transphobic for simply caring about women's rights, and refusing to believe that we should give up our female only spaces and allow males onto our sports teams.