Wheelchair woes and baby buggies

[MobilityCat]

As a wheelchair user I have had problems with buggy owners refusing to fold buggy and hold the baby. I've been left sitting in the rain because the person won't fold the buggy because "my babies asleep".
I 've seen buggies loaded with groceries and person holding the baby asleep in their arm. Occasionally someone will debus with the buggy to make the space available but it's rare. I know people are normally good and decent so what changes them on the bus?

In most of London wheelchair users don't have a choice between underground or buses; as the underground network remains largely inaccessible

@CupOfTPlease If I'm waiting for a bus in my powerchair and a manual chair user arrives I give them first option to board., following the Steam give way to Sail principle. So shopping trolley should give way to buggy user. Buggy user give way to wheelchair bay.
I bought a smaller chair to use on the bus so I don't need all the space and another wheelchair or buggy can fit. I've heard the drivers telling wheelchair users and buggy users that I'm already using it and called out " There's space here"

YANBU

Many moons ago I simply handed my dc to the driver while I folded the buggy! Never had more than a bemused face!

@jonastrotters

I won't fold my child's buggy down for anyone OP. He had a right to that space, you just wouldn't think so to have a quick look

I'd explain if you're close enough to me but obviously can't if you're still outside the bus

Which makes things harder for the drivers, and unlike some have claimed the bus companies fault. But the tools who argued with the drivers because well why can't you let me on when you've let them on. If people think it's hard with a bit of shopping to fold, they should try the oxygen tank.

There was an idea floating around a few years ago which could be ideal and to have a barrier that is in place when the space is empty and the only way to open is to have a mobility card and the barrier is either automatically raised by the driver or with the card.

@NeedingAGoodNap

Not all buggys actually fold down, so it’s possible they can’t. I also wouldn’t feel comfortable trying to hold a wiggling baby on a bus as some of the drivers around here think they are formula one drivers

Ridiculous comment.

I didn't learn to drive until I was in my 40's, so had to use buses all the time when my children were small. I had a proper pushchair, not a stick one and used buses every week. Of course I folded it and somehow coped with a baby, a pushchair and my shopping. When I had 2 children I had one in a sling, a pushchair, shopping and a toddler.

To be honest it was expected then and you almost never saw anyone enter a bus with the pushchair up. Its only fairly recently that some pushchair users seem to think they are more entitled than wheelchair users to a space on the bus. They are wrong.

I don't condone buggy users not moving for wheelchair users - that should absolutely be the case. But there is NO need to bash parents here saying 'you chose to have a baby/two close together/use a buggy' etc. It's not on. Both sets of people need to use the bus and there should be room for both. If there isn't, that does present a problem and it's up to the bus company to manage it if the bus users can't or won't.

You are completely right OP.

I am embarrassed, even ashamed to be associated, simply by virtue of being a parent and sometime pushchair user, with those self-absorbed, selfish, ignorant parents who think that their wants, their petty, temporary inconveniences, are more important than your lifelong needs. I cringe for them. I feel deep sympathy for you.

Wheelchair spaces on buses only exist because of decades of really hard, frustrating, tenacious campaign work, by people with disabilities and their (few) allies. Campaigning that was necessary because society at large chose to view disabled people as sub-human, not as real people who had worthwhile lives to live.

If pushchair-using parents feel strongly, about those few years of inconvenience in their otherwise objectively easier lives, they can mobilise themselves, do the work and do a bit of campaigning of their own, for pushchair spaces.

Selfish cuckoos that they are.

We only got a car quite recently so I used to get the bus pretty frequently with DD before that (although not much with covid going on like), she's just turned 3. As I knew that would be the case I deliberately picked a modest sized, lightweight pram with one-handed fold, and then a very light umbrella fold buggy for when she was about 9m+ and could sit up in it ok. I've never had to get off the bus for a wheelchair user and rarely saw them on buses - and I always thought it was so odd that I saw so few of them, I think they must often avoid it because of other idiots not moving for them. The few times we've shared buses because they have had the wheelchair space and I've used the the opposite size where the folding chairs are instead, and a couple of times I've had to fold up the buggy and squeeze it out the way and pop DD on my lap lap. If she had been asleep on those occasions I would have come off the bus. Of course that would be annoying but the space is for a wheelchair user at the end of the day and they face many more challenges than I do. Also one of the reasons I didn't want to babies very close in age and am also learning to drive is to avoid situations like PP have described where people are on buses with multiple tiny kids and loads of shopping etc. At the end of the day that's all a lifestyle choice and disability isn't.

@ihatethefuckingmuffin My son's buggy is a disabled child's buggy but you wouldn't know at a glance really.

No I'm not folding it down. He is entitled to that space as a disabled person in an adaption that isn't a wheelchair but is a mobility device for him

@Hadenoughofbloodycovid

Mums have got it much easier on public transport nowadays (I’m not saying it’s a bad thing btw) when my two were babies in the 80’s you had to take baby out the buggie, fold buggie, hold baby, shopping and toddlers hand and try to get on the bus, bloody nightmare!

I think the fact you can get on the bus with the pram unfolded is part of the problem and why OP finds this keeps (completely unreasonably) finding this happens, though - it must have been a real pain doing it at the bus stop but surely still easier than doing it on a crowded bus and I guess you were absolutely certain you could do it before you got on the bus? Also presumably when all buggies were folded to get on they went in the luggage rack - they got rid of them on buses around us years ago so a folded up buggy just has to go on the floor/lent up against a seat, which really isn't ideal.

Nobody is taking about buggies that count as wheelchairs that would be very small % of pushchairs. You can even get tags that say treat this as wheelchair even if was the case the rules were enforced. This isn’t an anti disabled children thread.

Whenever I used a bus, wheelchair user had priority over prams. The bus driver would tell them to fold the pram or to get off the bus.

Sorry you are experiencing this level of discrimination. You should contact the bus companies involved. Those areas are for wheelchairs users.

@Akire I know. But it's worth considering that many people have probably thought it was just a normal buggy, when in fact it's not

This might happen where a disabled person thinks someone is unreasonable for not taking their buggy down, but it might be a disabled buggy

@Biffbaff

I don't condone buggy users not moving for wheelchair users - that should absolutely be the case. But there is NO need to bash parents here saying 'you chose to have a baby/two close together/use a buggy' etc. It's not on. Both sets of people need to use the bus and there should be room for both. If there isn't, that does present a problem and it's up to the bus company to manage it if the bus users can't or won't.

What's not on about staying the truth? Those are choices. Wheelchairs aren't a choice. As a person in charge of a pushchair you have several options. As a wheelchair user your option is wait for the next bus or go home.

Whenever I used a bus, wheelchair user had priority over prams. The bus driver would tell them to fold the pram or to get off the bus.

This has happened to me before. I had to get off the bus too. The driver wouldn't take my word on it being a disabled child's buggy

Thankfully I got good response when I complained

If people are going to be awkward then buses should refuse to acommodate unfolded buggies. That is the only way to solve this.

[quote jonastrotters]@Akire I know. But it's worth considering that many people have probably thought it was just a normal buggy, when in fact it's not

This might happen where a disabled person thinks someone is unreasonable for not taking their buggy down, but it might be a disabled buggy [/quote]
Better all pushchairs are asked fold than we don’t ask anyone just case a tiny percent have a disabled child. I agree you shouldn’t have to wave flag and say my child is disabled but 10years down the line when your child is in proper wheelchair they be in same situation that adults are in now.

@Akire I know, I do agree. It's very difficult to police though in reality

Hopefully my child will be able to go out without any supportive aids as an adult, fingers crossed. People really do, often without realising, discriminate against the disabled

[quote jonastrotters]@ihatethefuckingmuffin My son's buggy is a disabled child's buggy but you wouldn't know at a glance really.

No I'm not folding it down. He is entitled to that space as a disabled person in an adaption that isn't a wheelchair but is a mobility device for him [/quote]
And neither should you.
As soon as I read your post I knew what you meant hence I mentioned those moaning about carrying a bit of shopping should try lift an oxygen tank (or words to that effect).

When step free first came into force it was hard for the driver to determine a mobility chair from a buggy, and one of the reasons iirc behind the barrier.

@bluelavender

In most of London wheelchair users don't have a choice between underground or buses; as the underground network remains largely inaccessible

This is definitely true although it is improving.

There’s a really useful access map from tfl that shows which stations are fully accessible/level to the trains, which have just step up to the train (so fine for a pushchair for example).

Of course it doesn’t help when you get to the station to find the lift is out of order.

@Marty13

I'm of two minds on this one.

First off, if you're holding a baby how are you supposed to fold the buggy ? You don't have four arms...

Second, I have a double buggy because my children are very close together. It can fold but it's massive, so wouldn't be easily put away. And it's a massive hassle. I didn't choose this one for kicks and giggles, it was the only double model I found that fitted essential requirements.

Finally, shouldn't there be a space on buses for buggies ? Especially as there are more people with babies than people in wheelchairs. It would be great if both needs could be accomodated at the same time.

When I was a young mum, I'd dump the baby on the driver's lap, get off and fold the buggy, then do the same in reverse when I got off. At least I knew the bus wouldn't leave without me!

I’ve always said this but buses should have separate spaces for wheelchairs and buggies. I used to use buses a lot pre-covid and I would only generally see 1- 2 wheelchairs on there a week whereas there’d be at least 1 other pram on there with mine every day so in a lot of areas, there’s far more prams than wheelchairs hence why the ‘wheelchair’ space is used by prams.

Of course prams can be folded but there’s nowhere to put them on a lot of buses. I’ve noticed the newer buses have removed the luggage storage at the front and replaced it with another seat so where would the pram even go? Also how can someone be expected to hold a wriggly baby (potentially two if they have twins) and fold a pram?

The clear solution is to provide separate spaces for both. They have this in other countries and it works well.

I wonder if that why the really introduced the plastic barrier. Stopped all us parents handing a baby to the driver.😂😂

Back in the old days if you did have twin babies and no other option but to get on the bus. You get one out take on bus hand to someone then get off pick up baby 2 fold pram with one hand. Yes double buggy could be done. Yes it was heavy and did your back in but could be done. Then drag by wheels on bus and either put in luggage rack or lay on floor by first seats. Then grab baby 1 off passenger and Balance them both. Everyone helped because that was your only option and most women had to have done the same when they had Small children.