Was neighbour or myself BU?

[NeighbourWoes]

We live in a building of flats which have communal gardens front and back. The back is much bigger and more for recreational use and the front is more of a flower bed type garden but still a decent size. To get to the back garden we have to walk around a street and use a key so it's not very convenient. Myself, DH and DS (2) live on the third floor and since lockdown we got into the habit of watering the flowers in the front garden. This was initiated by the communal gardener who got DS a watering can etc.

We do it probably 4 or 5 times a week, for 10 minutes a time. DS likes to fill up the watering can from the hose pipe and it's a sedate activity where we enjoy looking at the flowers but by no means make much noise or anything like that.

The hosepipe is directly by one of the ground floor flats windows. This ground floor flat doesn't have direct access to the communal garden but their window from the kitchen/ living room looks out directly onto it. This flat is occupied by a single older lady in her late 70s and we have always had a bit of a chat and been very friendly and she chats about DS etc.

This morning DS and I were in the garden for approximately 10 minutes just after 8am. We thought no more of it. This evening as we were coming in the neighbour came out of her flat very angry and exasperated and said that this morning was ridiculous because she was trying to have her breakfast and look out of her window and we were "right there". (I did notice this morning that she shut her curtains as we came into the garden.) She asked us to stop playing in that part of the garden but from the off was quite aggressive. I said I didn't ever realise this was an issue at all and she barked "I'm telling you right now it is!" She said it was ridiculous that we were so close to her window.

The issue is that's where the hosepipe is for filling up the watering can plus all the plant pots. Previously she has always come out and thanked DS for watering her pots saying it saved her a job so I have no idea where this came from.

I said to her that I was sorry she was upset but it's a communal space and she was very agitated. DH then arrived home and asked what the problem was and she was shrieking a bit and he told her "it won't happen again", but I'm annoyed as it's not her right to tell her we can't use that part of the garden.

I walked away and got quite emotional because all during lockdown I've struggled living in a third floor flat with no private garden and this is one thing DS looks forward to each day and asks to do, and this previously friendly neighbour suddenly became hostile and has spoilt that for him.

Who is being unreasonable?

She’s watering the plants, FGS. Stop with your outlandish whataboutery, it just makes you sound ridiculous.

As Mummyford rightly says there will have been a contract and I’m 99% sure the the OP will have signed that and will be adhering to it, otherwise I’m 99% certain the older woman would have thrown that at her and be threatening her with the management committee. She’s not. As I said before, I’m also 99% sure she’s not allowed to dictate who uses the communal garden that the OP has also paid for.

Yes, @Mummyford.

In reality, most of the rules are rarely enforced because most people are considerate of their neighbours. Nobody goes round checking that anyone playing with a ball is under 10 but if a bunch of teenagers are having a full on game of footie, wrecking the lawn and plants, hogging the entire space, kicking the ball into other people's space so they can't enjoy the garden without running the risk of a ball to the head, then they are enforced, spoiling it for those older kids who behave considerately when they play ball games. Ditto, in practice, well behaved dogs whose owners don't let them use the garden as a toilet are welcome despite being against the rules. Then some selfish idiot leaves dog mess on the lawn and the ban is enforced.

The OP could still water plants in the garden with her toddler, just not in front of someone's sitting room window every day.

Oh my goodness - more imagined but completely irrelevant scenarios. You just don’t let up with the nonsense, do you.

She’s not watering the plants in front of someone’s sitting room window every day, and if the older woman really believed that the ‘rules’ included ‘anyone found watering plants in the communal area without the express permission of the older woman in the ground floor flat will have their right to use said communal garden revoked immediately’ then I’m 99% the older woman would invoke that ‘rule’.

@MaMelon

Oh my goodness - more imagined but completely irrelevant scenarios. You just don’t let up with the nonsense, do you.

She’s not watering the plants in front of someone’s sitting room window every day, and if the older woman really believed that the ‘rules’ included ‘anyone found watering plants in the communal area without the express permission of the older woman in the ground floor flat will have their right to use said communal garden revoked immediately’ then I’m 99% the older woman would invoke that ‘rule’.

Yes, that's right, I've imagined issues that we have had in our communal garden . You do realise that writing a good, watertight legal contract is all about the "whatabboutery" as you call you? Which is precisely why I can almost guarantee that OP will not be permitted to do anything to the plants and there will be a clause about not causing a nuisance to neighbours. Probably lots of other rules and regulations too, as Mummyford said.

OP states that they do it 4 or 5 times a week and both the hosepipe and pots are outside the neighbour's kitchen/living room window in her first post. That's pretty much every day.

The "rule" will be that the plants don't belong to OP, therefore she can't do anything to them without permission. A rule that nobody is ever going to enforce unless it is causing a problem, which this is.

I expect, if OP continues, the neighbour's next step will be to invoke that (standard) rule and complain to the management company who probably will ban her (and everyone else) from watering any of the plants.

These issues may have happened in your communal garden - they are irrelevant here.

So - is it every day or pretty much every day? 4 or 5 times a week for 10 minutes at a time is not every day. Regardless, she’s entitled to be there.

I suspect that the management committee (if there even is one) won’t give two hoots, especially as another resident also waters the plants and that the older woman is simply trying to get the OP banned from the communal garden because she - and she alone - has decided that following one episode she doesn’t want her there at all but instead wants some use of the front garden. I suspect that the management committee will remind the older woman that every resident pays for the use of both gardens. In turn I suspect they will tell the OP that 8am is too early to be in the communal garden. I suspect that it won’t even get to that point though, despite the outlandish imagination of chesirecat99 on MN.

Of course, there will be a managing agent or committee or, at least, a landlord. There has to be some kind of legal entity to deal with communal maintenance eg the roof, gardens, hallways, the structure of the building, collecting ground rent and the service charges OP says she pays.

I doubt very much that the neighbour wants them banned from the garden. The issue is the neighbour doesn't want her to be up close immediately outside the window, where the pots and hosepipe are. The OP changed her story when people told her she was being unreasonable but actually all of her posts referring to what was said are about the neighbour not wanting them directly outside her window or in that "part of the garden", not the entire front garden.

This evening as we were coming in the neighbour came out of her flat very angry and exasperated and said that this morning was ridiculous because she was trying to have her breakfast and look out of her window and we were "right there". (I did notice this morning that she shut her curtains as we came into the garden.) She asked us to stop playing in that part of the garden but from the off was quite aggressive. I said I didn't ever realise this was an issue at all and she barked "I'm telling you right now it is!" She said it was ridiculous that we were so close to her window.

I'm annoyed as it's not her right to tell her we can't use that part of the garden.

But she doesn't want us by the window at any time.

she started saying how annoying it was and when she had children she wouldn't dream of letting them near other peoples windows

Of course, there will be a managing agent or committee or, at least, a landlord. There has to be some kind of legal entity to deal with communal maintenance eg the roof, gardens, hallways, the structure of the building, collecting ground rent and the service charges OP says she pays

Yes that’s right - not necessarily a management committee, and certainly not one who is going to agree to ban the OP from one of the 2 communal gardens on the say so of one neighbour.
If one of those communal gardens is beside her window, which in turn means that anyone using it is going to be near her window, then that’s too bad - the garden hasn’t moved nearer her window, it was there when she bought it. I don’t imagine she bought the flat plus the 20 feet of garden next to her window or she’d have made it very clear to the OP that she was trespassing.

I absolutely agree that 8am is too early to be out gardening in a shared garden - but 50 minutes a week at reasonable hours? Nope, the OP has every right to do that.

@Tedsy2

I would hate for someone to be outside my front window at 8am! Super annoying! I'm sure this isn't just the first time she has been bothered - hence her over the top reaction. Maybe go to the park if you need to be outside at 8am?

I still don't understand why they can't use the rear garden.

Front gardens are purely ornamental and for quiet buffer space in just about any multi unit dwelling. Back gardens for recreation.

I still don't understand why they can't use the rear garden
No, seems to be no reason other than its a bit further away. Seems downright nasty to continue to upset someone and invade their privacy when there is another available option

I think that's a bit early for a weekend. 9am onwards is fine.

I still don't understand why they can't use the rear garden

Because the OP wants to utilise both spaces that she pays for - and rightly so. Only one person has said she doesn’t want her there - that’s not how communal gardens work.

@MaMelon

I still don't understand why they can't use the rear garden

Because the OP wants to utilise both spaces that she pays for - and rightly so. Only one person has said she doesn’t want her there - that’s not how communal gardens work.

But generally rear gardens are for active recreation and front gardens for beautification.

Can anyone post an image of a front garden that is intended for hobbies and child play? I'm genuinely curious as have never seen a street-side lawn/garden area used that way at an apartment building.

The OPs child hasn’t been playing on it though - they have been watering the plants.

The neighbour thinks differently according to the OP…

She asked us to stop playing in that part of the garden but from the off was quite aggressive.

And the OP didn’t say she corrected her.

No she didn’t say she corrected her - but in the earlier part of the OP she made it clear she was watering the plants. I imagine the older neighbour just lumped child under watering the plants under playing.

I imagine if someone came out and accused me of doing something I wasn’t doing, then I’d defend myself robustly.

I still don't understand why they can't use the rear garden

Because the OP is paying for use of the communal front garden and has every right to enjoy it as the old lady. Why doesn't the old lady close her window if she doesn't like hearing people outside or go to another part of her flat where there's less noise.

Yabu to stand at her window at 8am op

I imagine if someone came out and accused me of doing something I wasn’t doing, then I’d defend myself robustly

And I imagine that if I was as emotional as the OP was as a result of the confrontation I might not think to jump on and challenge the word ‘play’ at that particular time.

Given that the OP is probably not going to come back (wise woman) we’ll never actually know what constituted play according to the older woman. Either way, unless the OP expressly broke some rule associated with the front communal area which the older lady failed to mention when she confronted the OP then the OP has every right to be there.

You can keep saying she has every right to be there.

I’ve never disagreed with that if you read my posts.

What would be nice though us to not go near her neighbour’s windows and especially not at 0800.

It would be a courtesy.

If OP is determined to ignore that, then I’m afraid that makes her sound very entitled and deeply inconsiderate.

And emotional? Give ower! She just told her it was a communal garden. No sorry. Well, no proper sorry.

Just a sorry you feel that way. So not a sorry.

Emotional? I don’t think so.

I imagine….

And I imagine that if I was as emotional as the OP was as a result of the confrontation I might not think to jump on and challenge the word ‘play’ at that particular time.

^This most definitely. Especially since English isn’t her first language, a fact which has probably been forgotten by now.

And I also don’t think she’s coming back, so it’s all speculation.

How long are you going to go on laying into an OP, who probably isn’t coming back and who you wouldn’t believe even if she did??

Emotional? I don’t think so

What you think is completely immaterial - it’s how the OP says she felt.

Agree Lizzie - it’s pointless to continue speculating. I hope the OP and her neighbour have managed to resolve the situation, it can’t be nice for either of them to be living like that.