Was neighbour or myself BU?

[NeighbourWoes]

We live in a building of flats which have communal gardens front and back. The back is much bigger and more for recreational use and the front is more of a flower bed type garden but still a decent size. To get to the back garden we have to walk around a street and use a key so it's not very convenient. Myself, DH and DS (2) live on the third floor and since lockdown we got into the habit of watering the flowers in the front garden. This was initiated by the communal gardener who got DS a watering can etc.

We do it probably 4 or 5 times a week, for 10 minutes a time. DS likes to fill up the watering can from the hose pipe and it's a sedate activity where we enjoy looking at the flowers but by no means make much noise or anything like that.

The hosepipe is directly by one of the ground floor flats windows. This ground floor flat doesn't have direct access to the communal garden but their window from the kitchen/ living room looks out directly onto it. This flat is occupied by a single older lady in her late 70s and we have always had a bit of a chat and been very friendly and she chats about DS etc.

This morning DS and I were in the garden for approximately 10 minutes just after 8am. We thought no more of it. This evening as we were coming in the neighbour came out of her flat very angry and exasperated and said that this morning was ridiculous because she was trying to have her breakfast and look out of her window and we were "right there". (I did notice this morning that she shut her curtains as we came into the garden.) She asked us to stop playing in that part of the garden but from the off was quite aggressive. I said I didn't ever realise this was an issue at all and she barked "I'm telling you right now it is!" She said it was ridiculous that we were so close to her window.

The issue is that's where the hosepipe is for filling up the watering can plus all the plant pots. Previously she has always come out and thanked DS for watering her pots saying it saved her a job so I have no idea where this came from.

I said to her that I was sorry she was upset but it's a communal space and she was very agitated. DH then arrived home and asked what the problem was and she was shrieking a bit and he told her "it won't happen again", but I'm annoyed as it's not her right to tell her we can't use that part of the garden.

I walked away and got quite emotional because all during lockdown I've struggled living in a third floor flat with no private garden and this is one thing DS looks forward to each day and asks to do, and this previously friendly neighbour suddenly became hostile and has spoilt that for him.

Who is being unreasonable?

I know of someone was shrieking at me it would have been in my first post …

No one is saying don’t enjoy the garden. Just stay away from the window.

And yes, it was only once at 0800. Once was too much if they were by her window.

OP said that the garden is a decent size. So stay away from the window.

As we only have the OP’s word for what transpired later, we have to go with that.

But as the OP said the neighbour asked them to stop playing in that part of the garden, you would wonder if it is the very quiet ‘just watering the flowers guv’ she is making on.

Just my thoughts on it. There are two sides to every story and the truth is somewhere in the middle they say.

She hasn’t said she doesn’t want the OP in that part of the garden - shod aid she would prefer they weren’t in the front garden at all. That’s unreasonable if the garden is communal.

I do wonder if there are other young children in the flats - it may be that it’s older people living in the flats who find any noise from young children intrusive. I know someone who moved into flats with a communal garden and was rounded on by some of the older residents who objected to her daughters playing (not shrieking or shouting. - playing) in ‘their’ communal garden because they wanted complete peace and quiet. It may be similar to that.

*she said

Who knows mamelon

We only have the one side of it. 🤷‍♀️

It was unreasonable to say she would prefer not to use the garden at all.

But maybe she felt that she wasn’t being listened to?

The OP said in her first post I said to her that I was sorry she was upset but it's a communal space and she was very agitated.

No “I’m sorry I disturbed you - what have we done that has upset you and we will try not to do it again” or similar.

Straight back putting the upset on the neighbour and telling the neighbour basically that she could do one because the space was communal.

It wasn’t handled well from the get go. Not by either of them by the sounds of it.

But I think the OP and her son have likely been more intrusive than they’re letting on to get the reaction they did.

More so after all the ‘thanks for watering’ and other pleasantries. Folk don’t usually turn on tuppences. 🤷‍♀️

Prefer her not to use the garden at all.

Sorry.

Yes we’ll never know - ultimately the OP is entitled to use the communal garden and the older woman really can’t dictate who uses the garden. We all have our preferences - I would prefer our next door neighbour on one side didn’t have his radio on at all in the garden and I’d rather my other neighbour’s dog didn’t bark - but I know that I share the environment with them snd I know that I can’t dictate how they use that environment. I don’t get a sense that the OP is making a huge amount of noise or is outside the older woman’s window often, it sounds more like there’s conflicting views on how the shared space should be utilised. There has to be some compromise but if the older woman has effectively said she’s not prepared to accept there’s a compromise to be had on this occasion and she just doesn’t want the OP to use the garden then it’s difficult to move forward without one person feeling aggrieved.

I would hate for someone to be outside my front window at 8am! Super annoying! I'm sure this isn't just the first time she has been bothered - hence her over the top reaction. Maybe go to the park if you need to be outside at 8am?

It’s telling that the other lady is quite happy for them to be there, and said that she thought the neighbour was being unreasonable. On the face of it, this is a case of one of them being more tolerant than the other of having to share a communal garden with other flats.

I know, it’s the OP telling us this and we can’t hear directly from the two ladies talked about, but that’s the case with any AIBU thread and it’s pointless to keep repeating this. We all know this. You just want to be able to claim that the OP is at fault.

@Tedsy2

They have been outside her window at 8am once only, they do it in the afternoon normally. The OP has said they will stick to afternoons in future.

The problem is that the neighbour still isn’t happy despite initially saying that it was a good compromise. She doesn’t want them in the front garden at all, which is unreasonable as the garden is communal.

This is a similar situation to one of my neighbours. There's a small communal front garden area outside her window and she moved in and claimed it as her own. Totally. It's not the only example she's shown of having an inflated sense of entitlement. Since she's moved in, she's been so so noisy (loud music, stomping on the floor, slamming doors) as well and other communal parts have become dirty and even damaged.

I don't know what you can do except accept that some people just don't behave in the way you'd expect.

If that ‘fault claim’ was directed at me lizzie I am merely saying there are two sides. Yes I’ll repeat that again.

I’m the basis of the OP’s posts, I’m not convinced she is totally without fault.

It is also convenient that another neighbour is fine with it. She may be. But it doesn’t sound as though they are going near her windows.

You will also note that I said the ‘shrieking’ neighbour didn’t handle it well either.

On the basis - not I’m - apologies. Typing on the hoof.

Maybe there is fault on the part of the OP, maybe there isn’t.

Ultimately she has the right to use the communal front garden that she pays for - one resident doesn’t get to ban others from the area, esp if she doesn’t offer any terms for compromise.

@NeighbourWoes

At the end of the day no matter what I have agreed (and will stick to) this is still a communal garden and to say you don't want a toddler in the part of it in front of your house at all, at any time of day, for 10 minutes at a time watering plants - to me that is a very selfish person. Even when the parent has offered to negotiate times etc. This is a communal space I pay for. I'm doing this because it's not worth the stress to me to push it, but I think this woman is awful.

I am on the management committee for our street's communal garden @NeighbourWoes. I am afraid that if a complaint was made about this to us, we would side with your neighbour because you are behaving in a way that causes a nuisance for other residents whereas you have 2 gardens at your disposal where you can play with your toddler without disturbing anyone. You can water something else, it doesn't have to be those pots. There is no need for you to be outside her window every day.

The tap: Unless your lease says otherwise, the outside tap is probably not a communal facility, it is there for the use of the gardener. You wouldn't use a plug socket in the communal hallway would you?

The plants: You might have use of the communal garden but you do not have the right to pick flowers... or water them. You could actually be damaging the plants by watering them during the day, stressing the roots, overwatering, burning the leaves by getting them wet on a sunny day or encouraging/spreading infections by getting them wet on a dull day. There is a correct time and way to water pot plants. The gardener may not have realised that you were watering them every day when he encouraged your DS. It is somewhat irrelevant whether he encouraged you or not, he doesn't have the authority to give you permission to water the plants or use the tap.

Antisocial/inconsiderate behaviour: We would consider it antisocial to use the space directly in front of someone's window by less than a metre, invading their privacy, especially as you are facing "in", and there is no need. You can enjoy the garden without using that space.

I'm not sure that running a hosepipe from your window is a solution either. Your neighbours aren't going to be happy having a grubby hosepipe dangling past their window every day. Get a 5 litre water bottle and use that but not to water the pots outside the poor woman's window, water a flower bed somewhere else away from the building. If you are watering the soil (without getting the plant wet), you are unlikely to cause any damage and you won't be causing a nuisance.

If you want your toddler to enjoy growing things, grow some flowers or strawberries, dwarf peas or tomatoes on your windowsill (but use a tray so they don't drip) or ask permission to have a few pots in the back garden.

On a cultural note (I'm not saying it is right), we don't tend to use our front gardens for recreation in the UK, although that is changing. If your neighbour is in her seventies, it would have been considered to be bad manners when she was a child and when her children were young.

You are on a management committee of a street’s communal garden? So not the same type of garden then?

The gardener, incidentally, is not an official gardener - it’s another resident who has assumed that role.

What a selfish, entitled old lady. Your son has been stopped from doing so many activities for months over the last year to protect people like her from the virus, yet she repays you by saying you can't spend a few minutes in the COMMUNAL garden. It's not her garden, you presumably pay in your rent or mortgage towards the communal garden. She should buy a private flat if she doesn't want anyone in the communal garden. I would just continue to use the garden as you like, perhaps not by her window but bloody cheek to expect you not to use it, like it's her own private space.

It's exactly the same @MaMelon. It's legally the same set up as a communal garden for a block of flats - the land is owned by a freeholder, the houses and flats have the right to use the communal garden specified in their deeds and pay annual service charges. It's not a "community" garden, a public space, if that's what you thought I meant.

OP hasn't said that the gardener isn't an official gardener, just that he is a resident. He could still be being paid or be the official in the sense that he has been given permission to do the gardening unpaid. It's not really relevant, whether he is paid, a volunteer or doing it without permission, he doesn't have the authority to give OP permission to water communal flowers. Only the freeholder/management company can decide that.

The OP is using the communal space in a way that disturbs other residents and is probably in breach of her lease (it would be unusual to be allowed to do anything with the plants in a communal garden, plus the tap may well not be for communal use). Whereas, the OP's enjoyment of the garden is not spoilt by not watering the pots under the neighbour's window. She can still play with watering things with her toddler in a different space without invading anyone's privacy and without the potential for causing damage to the garden.

You’re making a huge set of assumptions there.

Ultimately there’s only one neighbour who has complained and who is attempting prevent the OP from using a communal space that she pays for. The older woman has no right to do that and shouldn’t be expected to move her gardening activities to another part of the garden to accommodate someone who doesn’t want her using the communal area near her flat at all.

You’re making a huge set of assumptions there.

Not really.

8am is too early but other than that she should be free to use the communal garden for gardening purposes

I am 99.99% sure that it will not be permitted for residents to do any gardening, including watering, in the communal garden because it would be a legal nightmare if it were permitted. At best, OP's toddler overwaters the marigolds and it costs the residents £20 to replace them, at worst, John starts growing tomatoes and puts down slug pellets, OP's toddler eats them and ends up seriously ill in A&E, Sarah plants lilies, John's cat gets sick from the pollen and he wants the vet bill paying, Lucy plants an expensive shrub that blocks out the light from Sarah's flat so she cuts it down, Lucy wants her money back and the shrub reinstated, Peter plants a Leylandii hedge and the whole building gets subsidence... Unless the residents all own a share of the freehold, run their own management company, and they were too stupid to get legal advice when they set it up. Although it would probably wouldn't be permitted by their insurance policy to allow residents to do their own gardening in the communal space, unless they didn't read the policy either.

I would also be about 99% sure that there will be a general clause about using the communal gardens in a way that doesn't disturb other residents, although it probably won't be specific but it will be used to cover things like eg no playing amplified music, making noise at night, playing ball games that mean no one else can sit in the garden or plants/the lawn get damaged, using a barbecue, letting dogs foul in the garden, standing in front of people's windows watering plants.

I'm only about 80% sure that the tap isn't for communal use but a decent management company wouldn't allow it as someone could get injured or sick from drinking the water and sue, cause damage to someone else's property by leaving it running, or rack up bills washing their car every weekend/running their window cleaning business at the other residents' expense.

Good grief - whataboutery and more assumptions. I’m quite in awe of your vivid imagination.

Seeing as we’re quoting percentages I’m 99% sure that one resident isn’t going to be allowed to prevent another resident from using the communal garden for gardening purposes.

I haven't read the whole thread but feel for both of you. I can understand you liking to have some activities in the garden with DS in these difficult times. But I can also see that there is maybe a difference between a small child enjoying this activity here and there and the neighbour being ok with that and actively friendly - and the activity becoming more of a daily thing and then becoming really early in the morning in a way that maybe feels quite intrusive and like it's growing and growing. I always think with things like this when people get very rattled that maybe they are in pain as some things are worse first thing in the morning like some arthritis and back issues etc. Some people also really struggle with sleep and feel a bit rubbish at that time. It might also be that you gave her a fright as she wasn't expecting people right there so early. As everyone has said it seems incredibly early in the morning to be doing something that might disturb her right outside her window at a time she probably wants a bit of privacy. On the other hand I feel for you and your child having a fun activity to do that you look forward to each day. I wonder if you could try and have a conversation with her and apologise for being right there so early and you didn't mean to disturb her and then explain how much your little one enjoys being able to water the plants and it's been nice chatting to her before. So you hope she doesn't mind if you do a bit of watering at a better time of day. I'm not saying you should ask for permission exactly - as that would tie you and might not be reasonable. But I wonder if explaining and giving her more sense that you are going to be considerate so she doesn't feel it's getting out of control when you might suddenly appear outside her window. Perhaps you could say you hope to do the odd bit of watering in the afternoons for ten mins or so and hope that won't bother her too much. ??? I have a sittingroom where a neighbour feels like he's almost in the room when he's tinkering away with his bike at the front. It's quite disturbing to suddenly have him right there. It's just the design of the way the windows are but I can understand how she could have actually got quite a fright suddenly at that time in the morning. She maybe got more aggressive than she needed because she was maybe building up to confronting you all day and then it exploded out. It might be if you are nice to her and explain and show that you have taken on board to be a bit more sensitive and considerate of her space and that you will not be expanding this activity to that time in the morning that she might then calm down and similarly be nice back. I hope so. Good luck OP, I do feel for you but can understand how this situation might have escalated and with a bit of sensitivity it might be possible to stop it getting worse and get back on good terms with the neighbour. Please don't think everyone in the block finds you annoying just because of one incident that she even might be feeling a bit awkward about now - I'm sure not everyone is thinking this or that. I hope your DS can continue to water the plants and you can get on good terms again.

Sorry OP I hadn't read your update. I've just read it now.

I think I might still try to take the above approach - ie - we won't do annoying times and explain how hard it's been for you being couped up and how much your DS enjoys this activity. She sounds like she's allowed it to build up in her head and at least she's apologised for losing it with you. It seems unreasonable to me that she won't put up with anything at all however. And as you say - a bit mean and very inflexible. I understand people don't like to feel out of control in their own environment. On the other hand a small child watering some plants for ten mins here and there at reasonable - or even knowable - times is not a big ask. In my view.

8am at a weekend is unreasonable but I think after 9 is fine.

She was being unreasonable to have a go at you tho.

Read the rest of your replies. I see. You’re trying to reason / negotiate with a bully. That can’t be done. You need to escalate. Contact the landlord and saying you’re being harrassed in a communal area by this resident who is insisting that the outdoor tap is for her exclusive use. Ask if the landlord can please write to all residents to remind them that the gardens are rented by all residents, that there have been incidents of residents being harrassed for being present in a communal area, and that such behaviour is not acceptable (and depending what the lease says it may even be a breah of the lease). Ask the landlord to remind residents that if they require a private garden for their exclusive use they will need to rent on separately eg allotment.

@MaMelon

Good grief - whataboutery and more assumptions. I’m quite in awe of your vivid imagination.

Seeing as we’re quoting percentages I’m 99% sure that one resident isn’t going to be allowed to prevent another resident from using the communal garden for gardening purposes.

Good grief - you are the one making assumptions. My points are based on knowledge and experience. My family business was property development and I have spent most of my life living in properties that have access to a communal garden square or large private communal garden.

You can't "garden" in a communal garden any more than you can paint a communal hallway or plant bulbs in the local park. It's not your land or property. In real life, most people wouldn't object to a toddler watering some plants unless it is causing a nuisance or damage, which it is in this case. I'm 99.9% sure the lease will not give OP the right to do anything with the plants without permission. It would be legal madness to give residents that right but never say never... Just think about it. If everyone has equal rights to plant things in the garden but the plants belong to individuals, what happens when one resident digs up another resident's tulips to plant daffodils or one resident wants to cut down a tree to get more light that another resident likes because it gives them privacy?

If she doesn't have the right to do gardening, one resident absolutely can stop OP from gardening in the communal garden because OP would be in breach of her lease/covenants in the deeds.