"We can know the baby's sex but not its gender"

[Rumplestrumpet]

Hi all, I'm feeling a bit dim on this but know it's a sensitive subject so didn't want to ask IRL ....

I was chatting to a colleague about her pregnancy and asked if she knows whether it's a boy or girl. She said she didn't want to find out because it doesn't matter. I agreed - saying of course a baby is a baby and who cares what sex it is. But she explained "Well anyway we can only know its sex, but not its gender". Someone else nodded in agreement and I just kept quiet... But honestly I have no idea what this means.

I personally am critical of the idea that your sex has to define you, and hate the sexist stereotypes people fall for with small children ("boys will be boys" and all that nonsense). But it didn't sound like she meant this.

What would you understand by this?

Fwiw she's in her 20s and I'm an old fogey now so it may be a generational thing

Christ knows.
Just smile and nod.

Sex is biological, gender is a social construct, that's what she was referring to I believe.

She’s saying that the baby will be born one or other biological sex but may choose to identify as whatever gender he/she/they feel they are.

I would think she meant "we can know that this is a boy but not that he will like blue clothes and football, or that this is a girl but not that she will want pink frills and cupcakes."

I said something pretty similar when I was pregnant, although these days I think I would say "we can know its sex but not its sex-stereotyped personality traits."

Honestly I'd see this as a positive-she's making a clear distinction between biological reality and a social construct which is a good thing.

If more people did this then we wouldn't be in the mess we are currently in.

She's being PC and thinks she's dead clever.

Thanks ssd, that's what I did.

Water I get that, but I just wondered does it need to have a "gender" in that case? Shouldn't we be fighting against gendered stereotypes? Like I said, I would understand if she said she didn't want society's views of gender put onto her child. I get that. Feels like a feminist approach. Not sure that's what she meant though

@WaterOffADucksCrack

Sex is biological, gender is a social construct, that's what she was referring to I believe.

Exactly this^

As a "social construct", you may end up also believing that gender is changeable. Which you may or may not agree with, but as the mother of a teen who thinks she's been born "in the wrong body" and wants to have an elective double mastectomy and go on life long cross sex hormones (with little to no research carried on the long term effects of such) to change her physical appearance, I am reluctant to buy into this BS...

Sorry for the rant. Lots of threads around atm about inequality in society based on our sex and how depressing and insurmountable those inequalities are. It's no wonder teen girls want to opt out of womanhood - if only it was actually possible, eh? :(

I know someone like this. Just nod and smile

Infuriating. All this gender indentity politics just reinforces gender cliches. The implication in what she is saying (if she did know the sex) is that “my baby’s sex is female but actually her gender is male because she prefers dinosaurs to dolls”. Rather than “my baby is a little girl and she likes a variety of toys”.

@WaterOffADucksCrack

Sex is biological, gender is a social construct, that's what she was referring to I believe.

Spot on.

Oxalis that sounds incredibly tough, so sorry you're going through this.

I would have definitely opted out of being a girl when I was about 13 - periods were awful, men's attention was scary and boys just seemed to have more fun and more opportunities. Now I'm an grown woman I can see that we need to be able to embrace our sex AND fight against all the misogyny - but that's hard to take on when you're still a kid

Sex is biological, gender is psychological.

All she's doing is pointing out that she knows the difference between the two words. Ignore and move on.

Thanks @rainyskylight you've managed to explain what was making me uncomfortable about it. It does feel backwards rather than progressive

She’s saying that the baby will be born one or other biological sex but may choose to identify as whatever gender he/she/they feel they are

I agree she also thinks she's being clever.

She thinks sexist stereotypes are real & people should be reclassified as a different gender/stereotype if they don't fit the stereotype box associated with their sex

oxalisRed

@rainyskylight

Infuriating. All this gender indentity politics just reinforces gender cliches. The implication in what she is saying (if she did know the sex) is that “my baby’s sex is female but actually her gender is male because she prefers dinosaurs to dolls”. Rather than “my baby is a little girl and she likes a variety of toys”.

Quite. I've yet to meet any gender identity flag bearer who doesn't buy into the most absurd stereotypes themselves whilst howling at the moon that stereotypes are wrong. Joshua doesn't like football so wears a tutu and carries a fairy wand. A Boden skirt not in your face enough clearly.

She's been reading to much mumsnet.

Ijust wondered does it need to have a "gender"

Good question. We are all born with a biological sex which is male or female. It is more difficult to observe the sex of the minute number of people born with an intersex condition, but chromosomal analysis now gives you the right answer.

A “gender identity” is like “an immortal soul”. You can’t see it or prove it exists. Some believe strongly in it. Others think it is a load of baloney.

Well she's not incorrect, is she? She's probably read all the threads on here that ask people to guess the baby's gender while it's still in the womb (impossible, apart from the fact you know they really mean the baby's biological sex) and wanted to make it clear she understood that it's the sex you're looking for on an anatomy scan, and sex is biological. She is probably used to seeing other people being corrected on the clumsy usage and thought she'd get in there first!

She's saying what you're saying

The sex is male or female but she doesn't agree to the social constructs of gender roles

I dont think she's being PC at all, it's the living reality for new parents trying to navigate all this shite.

And remember, the baby showers are still pink and blue rather than rainbow of hue. So actually getting rid of referring to the babies sex altogether might be a way forward? I mean, what material difference should it make especially in the early years?

@Geamhradh

She's being PC and thinks she's dead clever.

She's actually correct. You can only know the sex. No way to know the gender which is made up tripe anyway

@Geamhradh

She's being PC and thinks she's dead clever.

Not at all, she is stating a fundamental truth.

Sex is sex and gender is gender. Can't argue with that.

I don’t mind that comment as at least she’s recognising there’s a biological reality to sex whereas gender is a social construct.