"We can know the baby's sex but not its gender"

[Rumplestrumpet]

Hi all, I'm feeling a bit dim on this but know it's a sensitive subject so didn't want to ask IRL ....

I was chatting to a colleague about her pregnancy and asked if she knows whether it's a boy or girl. She said she didn't want to find out because it doesn't matter. I agreed - saying of course a baby is a baby and who cares what sex it is. But she explained "Well anyway we can only know its sex, but not its gender". Someone else nodded in agreement and I just kept quiet... But honestly I have no idea what this means.

I personally am critical of the idea that your sex has to define you, and hate the sexist stereotypes people fall for with small children ("boys will be boys" and all that nonsense). But it didn't sound like she meant this.

What would you understand by this?

Fwiw she's in her 20s and I'm an old fogey now so it may be a generational thing

So, at least three people have stated that sex and gender often correlate/match/align, but sometimes don't.

Please could at least one of you set out what you mean by this - which sexes and genders "match"?

Gladiolys DeathByWalkies kindaclassy

Do you mean that, for example, male sex matches the gender identity of 'man' (or 'boy')? If so, why does it/why should it? What has being male got to do with being a man?

Is it simply a numbers thing - we assume that most males identify as men but if at some point enough males felt inside that they were women, then this would switch and male would 'match' woman? How would we know?

I note that this question keeps being ignored but surely if we want to welcome and validate people who are struggling with their gender it's important to be able to articulate what we are even talking about?

🙄

@ElephantOfRisk

It's bollox. Instead of actually widening peoples view on what someone should be like regardless of their sex, they've created more and more boxes to put people in.

What we should have been aiming for is an acceptance that people are male or female genetically (with a few exceptions) but being male or female doesn't mean that some toys/clothes/jobs/personality traits etc are off limits.

What a mess society has got itself in over this.

This.

@StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind

I would think GC people would tend to say gender doesn’t exist / isn’t valid / shouldn’t be given consideration, rather than acknowledging that it’s simply a separate thing to sex.

That's my feeling too.

I think they would say that gender is a powerful but pernicious social force that limits the potential and opportunity of both males and females. And that we should seek for everyone to live their lives without being limited by these stereotypes.

If you think it is a 'separate thing' then what exactly do you think it is? And what is your evidence for it being anything other than a stereotype based social construct?

This is just getting ridiculous, my DD is obsessed with any kind of construction vehicle, she has a coat with diggers on it. She’s a girl, rest is just her personality.

[quote Manicpixiedreammollusc]@LunaNorth I am with the WHO and NHS that gender dysphoria is not a psychological condition, so is completely different to anorexia.[/quote]
Yes, WHO changed the classification didn’t they? To remove the stigma. But they’ve not replaced it with anything. Wonder why?

Room I agree.

I would say that gender is like a religion, some believe in it and lots don't, and unfortunately at the moment we have a rather large number of zealots who worship at the altar of 'gender'.

@StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind I think the NHS page explains it very well
www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/

Again it is something that people who have not experienced it find very hard to understand, because it is so completely different to their lived experience. I feel very strongly that this should be taken into account when talking about gender.

@rainyskylight

Infuriating. All this gender indentity politics just reinforces gender cliches. The implication in what she is saying (if she did know the sex) is that “my baby’s sex is female but actually her gender is male because she prefers dinosaurs to dolls”. Rather than “my baby is a little girl and she likes a variety of toys”.

Yes I agree with you. It seems that all the talk about gender actually reinforces stereotypes. Would be better to break down barriers by eg encouraging boys to do ballet, rather than allow that boy to think they want to dance, therefore they might be a girl

But how can people believe that gender is a social construct while simultaneously believing that trans women are women because trans women identify with all the gender stereotyping of being a woman? Clothes, hair make up, heels, etc.

@LunaNorth incorrect - they replaced it with the term “gender incongruent”.

That NHS page is good and is one of the few to explicitly state that this is about masculinity/femininity.

I suspect under this NHS definition most of MN would be non-binary - I'm not sure it completely aligns with what trans groups say but fair enough:

"Some people do not define themselves as having a "binary" identity. For them the concept of gender is not relevant to their identity.

They may use different terms, such as agender, gender diverse, gender non-conforming, to describe their identity. However, as a group, they are often called "non-binary"."

Wow what a lot of interesting replies!!

I'm not playing "faux naive" as a couple of PPs suggest - I am aware of gender debates of course. But I genuinely didn't know what she meant - and being aware of the debate, I knew I could say the wrong thing and didn't want anyone to jump down my throat. Hence why asking on here.

Fwiw no one asked about gender - colleagues had asked if it was a boy or girl, she herself brought up sex and gender.

Having read the thread, I think it's most likely she conforms to the idea that sex is one thing and gender is another, perhaps equally important, element of who we are. I disagree, but I think I understand a bit better where she was coming from.

[quote Manicpixiedreammollusc]@LunaNorth incorrect - they replaced it with the term “gender incongruent”.[/quote]
I meant the reason, not the name.

Op the pregnant woman in question was trying too hard to be PC. Her child's personality (when born) will have fuck all to do with whether she's a boy or a girl.
God this ridiculous scramble some people have to be so pc is tiresome and makes everyone too frightened to express an an opinion for fearing of offending anyone. Some people need to be careful what they wish for.

Oh and for the PP who decided to research me to find out my background and age 40s does feel very old fogey when you're discussing gender with a millennial

@TheGoogleMum

I know someone like this. Just nod and smile

Yay. Let’s all submit our female children to an increasingly misogynistic society! Handmaidens one and all.

[/sarcasm]

@NVision

Good for your colleague feeling comfortable to express her opinion OP

Yes, it's great when people feel comfortable exposing their stupidity.

@ElephantOfRisk

It's bollox. Instead of actually widening peoples view on what someone should be like regardless of their sex, they've created more and more boxes to put people in.

What we should have been aiming for is an acceptance that people are male or female genetically (with a few exceptions) but being male or female doesn't mean that some toys/clothes/jobs/personality traits etc are off limits.

What a mess society has got itself in over this.

This ^^. Is what I was trying to say so inarticulately. But you've got it in one.

"Some people do not define themselves as having a "binary" identity. For them the concept of gender is not relevant to their identity.

They may use different terms, such as agender, gender diverse, gender non-conforming, to describe their identity. However, as a group, they are often called "non-binary"."

See, I find that problematic as it assumes that we all have an 'identity' relating to their gender, and that will be either binary or not. Whereas many people's identity will come from things they actually DO in their lives, their interests, communities, families, what they do in their spare time, the causes they support.

What the NHS is doing there is propping up quite a controversial idea that we each have an innate gender. They should have presented it as an idea, a theory, which is contested and not a fact.

@Rumplestrumpet

Wow what a lot of interesting replies!!

I'm not playing "faux naive" as a couple of PPs suggest - I am aware of gender debates of course. But I genuinely didn't know what she meant - and being aware of the debate, I knew I could say the wrong thing and didn't want anyone to jump down my throat. Hence why asking on here.

Fwiw no one asked about gender - colleagues had asked if it was a boy or girl, she herself brought up sex and gender.

Having read the thread, I think it's most likely she conforms to the idea that sex is one thing and gender is another, perhaps equally important, element of who we are. I disagree, but I think I understand a bit better where she was coming from.

There is evidence that knowing baby’s sex before birth changes the way they are treated as children. Would you paint a nursery pink on the offchance you were having a girl? Unlikely, but you may decide to change from a different colour (yellow/grey/cream) if you did know. Same with clothes, toys etc.

When my daughter was little Fisher Price made a ride on zebra toy in 2 colourways: black and white or pink and black. Why? Have you ever seen a pink and black zebra? The only reason is to create the false-reality that girls should get pink versions. (See also pink globes, pink toy laptops etc etc).

I wonder how many times a day she says that

When we had our anatomy scan, the sonographer asked if we wanted to know the gender. I just smiled and said no thank you, but I can’t imagine the grief she would get off some people for saying gender not sex

[quote Manicpixiedreammollusc]@LunaNorth I am with the WHO and NHS that gender dysphoria is not a psychological condition, so is completely different to anorexia.[/quote]
But gender dysphoria is a diagnosis listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), the manual published by the American Psychiatric Association to diagnose mental conditions.

Anorexia is also included in DSM-5.