"We can know the baby's sex but not its gender"

[Rumplestrumpet]

Hi all, I'm feeling a bit dim on this but know it's a sensitive subject so didn't want to ask IRL ....

I was chatting to a colleague about her pregnancy and asked if she knows whether it's a boy or girl. She said she didn't want to find out because it doesn't matter. I agreed - saying of course a baby is a baby and who cares what sex it is. But she explained "Well anyway we can only know its sex, but not its gender". Someone else nodded in agreement and I just kept quiet... But honestly I have no idea what this means.

I personally am critical of the idea that your sex has to define you, and hate the sexist stereotypes people fall for with small children ("boys will be boys" and all that nonsense). But it didn't sound like she meant this.

What would you understand by this?

Fwiw she's in her 20s and I'm an old fogey now so it may be a generational thing

You can know the sex but not the personality.

That's all that what she's saying really means.

Some people believe in innately gendered souls / personalities, so would mean 'we know the sex but not what gender has been bestowed upon it'.

Others see gender as a negotiation between a person and the particular society they find themselves living in, so would mean 'we can know the sex but not what path they will navigate through life, so what socially-defined gender they might end up appearing closest to, or choose to align themselves with as they grow older.'

So basically, it's a baby, with a sex and we don't know how its life will turn out. Which is true of all babies.

@MrsPelligrinoPetrichor

She’s saying that the baby will be born one or other biological sex but may choose to identify as whatever gender he/she/they feel they are

I agree she also thinks she's being clever.

Yup. Shame it’s had the opposite effect to the one she intended. Roll your eyes and move on.

@Thefaceofboe

When we had our anatomy scan, the sonographer asked if we wanted to know the gender. I just smiled and said no thank you, but I can’t imagine the grief she would get off some people for saying gender not sex

Rightly so.

@Cavalierqueen probably as many times as when people ask her if she is having a boy or a girl. Like it matters.

I try really hard not to ask when it's due and if they know what it is. It's not really of any interest to me anyway and it's just awkward conversation making. I think using a stupid question to throw complicated gender politics back is a bit unfair though.

Please could at least one of you set out what you mean by this - which sexes and genders "match" (and why)?

(Just to reassure you that your posts have not been rendered invisible CardialLolzy.)

This is an excellent, fundamental question, one that is rarely asked and never answered.

@JeanneDoe

Exactly.

Joanne Rowling was pilloried for stating that sex is a real, biological fact.

Anyone who acknowledges that sex is a biological fact, and that gender and sex are separate and different, is failing in their woke credentials. Because as we know, if you wear high heels and make-up (ie your gender is female), then your sex is also female. #nodebate.

But it’s interesting how some people on here have interpreted her comment as meaning she’s a gender critical feminist and others have assumed it means she’s woke and PC!

@DeathByWalkies

Sex is the bit involving chromosomes, genetalia and so on.

Gender is much more nuanced, and includes identity ("I'm a woman") and expression (I dress in a broadly feminine manner)

For most people, their sex and gender correlate, but not for everyone (non-binary people, trans people and so on).

This is not a fact. Most of us do not ascribe to a gender identity.

@Rumplestrumpet

Oh and for the PP who decided to research me to find out my background and age 40s does feel very old fogey when you're discussing gender with a millennial

You've only just turned 41 and I don't think millennial means what you think it does, you're one year out from being one.

@ekofisk DSM-5 is produced by the American Psychiatric Association there are increasing concerns from medical professionals that it leads to misdiagnosis and over diagnosis, particularly as a result of influence from the pharmaceutical industry. Hence me preferring to stick to NHS and WHO guidance.

If only...........

• gender stereotypes could be abolished at a stroke
• gender dysphoria could be abolished as a diagnosis because no-one gave a flying toss who wears what or what their interests are.
• mutilating children (either surgically or by the use of drugs) was outlawed.
• gender dysphoria clinics were outlawed
• people stopped being so "woke" and woke up to the dangers to children involved in buying in to all this BS.

There is a whole bandwagon surrounding all this with "professionals" jockeying for position as "experts" and pocketing cash along the way.

It has to stop.

slashlover
I would have thought op is just about a millennial as she was, I presume, born in or before 1981. Millennials were born 1981-1994 or so, weren’t they?

@HipTightOnions

Please could at least one of you set out what you mean by this - which sexes and genders "match" (and why)?

(Just to reassure you that your posts have not been rendered invisible CardialLolzy.)

This is an excellent, fundamental question, one that is rarely asked and never answered.

Genuine thanks, I'm beginning to feel like I'm going mad. I really can't believe that people give this definition without being able to specify what it actually means - I'm more than ready to accept I don't know enough about it, hence constant questions!

But this - which seems to me like anyone's logical next question when given the claim that some sex-gender combinations match and others don't - never gets a response!

I am coming to the conclusion that people don't always think through what they say. But also aren't interested in going 'hmm, I know this is true so I'm interested in working out where the knotty bit is here, what my stance on it is, even if that's "I don't know"."
I for sure have some parts of various beliefs that I genuinely don't know where my personal line is drawn. I don't think it helps anyone to pretend we've got it all figured out or to not acknowledge that sometimes our beliefs may have "problematic" or unkind logical consequences and to consider how we might address that.

[quote Manicpixiedreammollusc]@ekofisk DSM-5 is produced by the American Psychiatric Association there are increasing concerns from medical professionals that it leads to misdiagnosis and over diagnosis, particularly as a result of influence from the pharmaceutical industry. Hence me preferring to stick to NHS and WHO guidance.[/quote]
Of course, diagnosing gender dysphoria -especially in young people - is a licence to print money for the medical profession and big pharma. All that surgery and life long medication.

Hence the push back (at least in the UK) against rushing young people into puberty blockers and medicalisation.

@lottiegarbanzo

You can know the sex but not the personality.

That's all that what she's saying really means.

Some people believe in innately gendered souls / personalities, so would mean 'we know the sex but not what gender has been bestowed upon it'.

Others see gender as a negotiation between a person and the particular society they find themselves living in, so would mean 'we can know the sex but not what path they will navigate through life, so what socially-defined gender they might end up appearing closest to, or choose to align themselves with as they grow older.'

So basically, it's a baby, with a sex and we don't know how its life will turn out. Which is true of all babies.

For the baby's sake I hope that is true. The worry is that if she means this Some people believe in innately gendered souls / personalities, so would mean 'we know the sex but not what gender has been bestowed upon it' Then she may start to see a girl as having a 'boy' gendered 'soul' as the the child enjoys 'boy' things. And that can have all sorts of repercussions today. Just let kids be who they are and stop worrying about identifying their 'gender.'

@Mischance

“ gender dysphoria could be abolished as a diagnosis because no-one gave a flying toss who wears what or what their interests are.”

But this isn’t true - you might not give a toss, but for people with gender dysphoria, it is hugely important and can be a source of great distress. Also, it’s not considered a mental health condition, so isn’t diagnosed as such.

Manicpixiedreammollusc It is only hugely important because society decrees it should be and reinforces this at every turn.

Women have been wearing trousers for decades.....roll on the day when men can wear skirts without turning heads.

@Mischance as I have said further up thread, gender dysphoria is not about being a woman and wanting to wear trousers, not wanting to wear pink etc. This is not conforming to gender stereotypes and becoming more and more common thank god. Gender dysphoria is something entirely different.

@Mischance

Manicpixiedreammollusc It is only hugely important because society decrees it should be and reinforces this at every turn.

Women have been wearing trousers for decades.....roll on the day when men can wear skirts without turning heads.

I grew up on the 80's so it all just thoroughly bemuses me.

Shes a sexist fuckwit who believes in gender stereotypes.

@rainyskylight

Infuriating. All this gender indentity politics just reinforces gender cliches. The implication in what she is saying (if she did know the sex) is that “my baby’s sex is female but actually her gender is male because she prefers dinosaurs to dolls”. Rather than “my baby is a little girl and she likes a variety of toys”.

Exactly this. I’m so glad I don’t have a teenager right now, I’m hoping sanity will be restored by the time my kids get there

@CardinalLolzy

So, at least three people have stated that sex and gender often correlate/match/align, but sometimes don't.

Please could at least one of you set out what you mean by this - which sexes and genders "match"?

Gladiolys DeathByWalkies kindaclassy

Do you mean that, for example, male sex matches the gender identity of 'man' (or 'boy')? If so, why does it/why should it? What has being male got to do with being a man?

Is it simply a numbers thing - we assume that most males identify as men but if at some point enough males felt inside that they were women, then this would switch and male would 'match' woman? How would we know?

I note that this question keeps being ignored but surely if we want to welcome and validate people who are struggling with their gender it's important to be able to articulate what we are even talking about?

I don’t really understand what you mean by ‘which ones match’. It’s not like a ‘draw the line puzzle’ in a kids book if that’s what you’re envisaging.

Gender is social and cultural. It’s not biologically determined. Most people’s gender and sex happen to be the same, but some people’s aren’t the same.

She's been reading to much mumsnet

Or not enough

@Geamhradh

She's being PC and thinks she's dead clever.

This, just nod and smile

Op's colleague was just trying to be clever. She will know its sex as soon as it's born but not its gender , she said it for effect.