"We can know the baby's sex but not its gender"

[Rumplestrumpet]

Hi all, I'm feeling a bit dim on this but know it's a sensitive subject so didn't want to ask IRL ....

I was chatting to a colleague about her pregnancy and asked if she knows whether it's a boy or girl. She said she didn't want to find out because it doesn't matter. I agreed - saying of course a baby is a baby and who cares what sex it is. But she explained "Well anyway we can only know its sex, but not its gender". Someone else nodded in agreement and I just kept quiet... But honestly I have no idea what this means.

I personally am critical of the idea that your sex has to define you, and hate the sexist stereotypes people fall for with small children ("boys will be boys" and all that nonsense). But it didn't sound like she meant this.

What would you understand by this?

Fwiw she's in her 20s and I'm an old fogey now so it may be a generational thing

@DeathByWalkies

Yeah, I just call it wearing different clothes.

@WaterOffADucksCrack

Sex is biological, gender is a social construct, that's what she was referring to I believe.

I doubt it.

I think she has bought into the recent gender ideology which appears to believe that we all have some sort of gendered entity within us, seems to be a bit like a soul or essence, and that the gender may not correspond with the sex. I don't like this gendered ideology as it seems to reinforcing sexist social constructs which limit both sexes by putting attributing certain behaviours to each sex.

I think its more healthy to say, ' We will know the baby's sex but not their personality'. Then the kids personality is not linked to their sex and they have the full range of human potential open to them, without having to pick a 'gender.'.

(If she was referring to gender as a social construct then she is effectively saying, ' we know the baby's sex but not if they will conform to sex-based stereotypes' And I doubt she was saying that.

DeathByWalkies please could you answer my question above about which sexes correlate with which genders and why/how?
Does female sex correlate with 'being a woman'? If so, why? (And if not, why not?) What does one's sexed body have to do with one's innate gender identity - are the totally separate or does one influence the other?

It's so hard to talk about gender when no-one wants to define it or talk about which sexes match which genders when you're using that as an actual definition.

You can still have a gender expression that could be described as androgynous, tomboy, butch etc etc etc. It doesn't mean you're any less of a woman.

Rubbish. Talk about reinforcing stereotypes.

Sex isn't a spectrum. And gender is a load of bollocks.

Some PP on this thread are confusing gender non-conforming and gender dysphoria.

Gender non-conforming means not wanting to live within traditional gender stereotypes.

Gender dysphoria means a fundamental sense that you do not identify with the gender you were assigned at birth as a result of your biological sex. It’s very difficult for people who have not experienced it to understand, but it’s totally different being a girl that doesn’t want to wear pink and play with dolls.

Sex = biological, based on a range of identifiers (chromosomes, hormones, genitalia, etc). Can be assessed when the baby is in utero once they’re big enough for their genitals to be seen.

Gender is a social / cultural construction or identify which may or may not correspond with sex. You can’t determine gender by appearance or by reference to biological markers. Therefore, it can’t be known by way of a scan.

Gender isn’t really a useful term in respect of babies. You can only know a baby’s sex. And most parents understandably don’t care about finding out what their baby’s sex is, since it’s one of the least interesting things about them.

I suppose that should actually say ‘some’ parents rather than ‘most’! I don’t actually know what the statistics are re what percentage of parents find out their baby’s sex in advance.

yeah, whatever.

some [probably most] people use 'sex' and 'gender' interchangeably, to refer to the same thing, biological sex.

a modest-sized but growing minority use 'gender' to refer to narrow 'social' factors.

it hopefully goes without saying that neither usage is objectively correct or objectively wrong.

in other words, as of mid 2021, the meaning of the word 'gender' is unsettled. this is ok. there are many others like it. be kind and respectful to others & save the fallings-out for matters substantive rather than linguistic.

Oh give me strength!

Fair enough when people spout this nonsense about grown ups, but it's a foetus for goodness sake.

@DeathByWalkies

Sex is the bit involving chromosomes, genetalia and so on.

Gender is much more nuanced, and includes identity ("I'm a woman") and expression (I dress in a broadly feminine manner)

For most people, their sex and gender correlate, but not for everyone (non-binary people, trans people and so on).

For most people, their sex and gender correlate, but not for everyone (non-binary people, trans people and so on).

Literally the exact opposite in my experience. People dress in a way that gets the least amount of grief. I suspect most people feel that their gender doesn't align with their sex imo. Most people are non binary if you have to use a silly word for "isn't a Barbie"

@Manicpixiedreammollusc

Some PP on this thread are confusing gender non-conforming and gender dysphoria.

Gender non-conforming means not wanting to live within traditional gender stereotypes.

Gender dysphoria means a fundamental sense that you do not identify with the gender you were assigned at birth as a result of your biological sex. It’s very difficult for people who have not experienced it to understand, but it’s totally different being a girl that doesn’t want to wear pink and play with dolls.

Gender dysphoria is not ‘a fundamental sense.’ It’s a psychological condition.

Calling it ‘a fundamental sense’ is like saying anorexic people have a ‘fundamental sense’ that they are overweight.

She's stating that sex is distinct from gender and that one is set at birth while the other is imaginary emergent/selected later on in life. She is correct (and, one assumes, GC).

@missChanandlerBong90
100% agree. The antithesis of woke; she is acknowledging that six* is immutable.
Whereas once upon a time I'd have said my gender was female, nowadays I'd be sure to say that my six* is female. Because biologically I am an adult human female. I also happen to identify as female.

If I were to have a gender reveal party, I'd probably now call it a six* reveal party

(yes I know I have misspelled a certain word)

I suppose that should actually say ‘some’ parents rather than ‘most’! I don’t actually know what the statistics are re what percentage of parents find out their baby’s sex in advance.

We only did for last child more to prepare older children - but with first two all many relatives who'd had children pre-scans went into practically melt downs because they couldn't buy the "right" clothes and equipment - it was very odd.

I wouldn’t assume GC. Sounds to me like she’s acknowledging that while they might know the baby’s sex, they can’t assume gender from that. I would think GC people would tend to say gender doesn’t exist / isn’t valid / shouldn’t be given consideration, rather than acknowledging that it’s simply a separate thing to sex.

If misogyny didn't exist, none of this gender twattery would exist either. 'Gender roles' wouldn't have existed, nor would stereotypes.

So once again, something else to be grateful to the patriarchy for

It does feel like the more that people outwardly express opposition to being labelled, the more that we are labelling ourselves, especially within the boundaries of gender. I did read an article somewhere though that suggested that the enormous amount of different gender labels that people are applying to themselves is bound to reduce over time.

@randomlyLostInWales

I suppose that should actually say ‘some’ parents rather than ‘most’! I don’t actually know what the statistics are re what percentage of parents find out their baby’s sex in advance.

We only did for last child more to prepare older children - but with first two all many relatives who'd had children pre-scans went into practically melt downs because they couldn't buy the "right" clothes and equipment - it was very odd.

It’s weird, isn’t it? Some people were genuinely annoyed with me, like I was being deliberately obtuse and denying them the right to buy the ‘right’ things. One of the reasons I didn’t find out was because I didn’t want to be flooded with ‘boy’ or ‘girl’ clothes. If I ever have a second baby I want to be able to reuse my baby clothes without them saying ‘mummy’s little boy’ or having 93 peplums and a glittery bow on them.

I would think GC people would tend to say gender doesn’t exist / isn’t valid / shouldn’t be given consideration, rather than acknowledging that it’s simply a separate thing to sex.

That's my feeling too.

I've read a bit more of the thread now.

How did gender become a 'thing' that one 'discovers.'

Its not that. Its only useful meaning is to describe the limiting stereotypes that society places on the sexes. Its not something WITHIN someone.. Its something that society from WITHOUT tries to impose on individuals.

The thing to do is to encourage children to see themselves as individuals who do not need to limit themselves in any way because of their sex, and who have agency to grow and develop their personalities as they go through life.

Not to encourage them to believe they are each limited by an innate 'gender' that they need to 'discover.'

@StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind

If misogyny didn't exist, none of this gender twattery would exist either. 'Gender roles' wouldn't have existed, nor would stereotypes.

So once again, something else to be grateful to the patriarchy for

That does have to play a significant part I would imagine.

@LunaNorth I am with the WHO and NHS that gender dysphoria is not a psychological condition, so is completely different to anorexia.

[quote Manicpixiedreammollusc]@LunaNorth I am with the WHO and NHS that gender dysphoria is not a psychological condition, so is completely different to anorexia.[/quote]
Genuine question- what is it classed as?

It's bollox. Instead of actually widening peoples view on what someone should be like regardless of their sex, they've created more and more boxes to put people in.

What we should have been aiming for is an acceptance that people are male or female genetically (with a few exceptions) but being male or female doesn't mean that some toys/clothes/jobs/personality traits etc are off limits.

What a mess society has got itself in over this.

She's being PC and thinks she's dead clever.

^^ This

All sounds a bit try hard.

I never dressed my DCs according to stereotypes and toys were neither boy nor girl toys. Neither did I push them into girl or boy roles.

Although, that wasn't a conscious act on my part I just let them be people rather than frilly little girls or tough little boys.

Some of us can do things like that without having to waffle on about gender.

Didn't make a lot of difference to their genders. Their genders still seem to align with their sex, it happens.