"We can know the baby's sex but not its gender"

[Rumplestrumpet]

Hi all, I'm feeling a bit dim on this but know it's a sensitive subject so didn't want to ask IRL ....

I was chatting to a colleague about her pregnancy and asked if she knows whether it's a boy or girl. She said she didn't want to find out because it doesn't matter. I agreed - saying of course a baby is a baby and who cares what sex it is. But she explained "Well anyway we can only know its sex, but not its gender". Someone else nodded in agreement and I just kept quiet... But honestly I have no idea what this means.

I personally am critical of the idea that your sex has to define you, and hate the sexist stereotypes people fall for with small children ("boys will be boys" and all that nonsense). But it didn't sound like she meant this.

What would you understand by this?

Fwiw she's in her 20s and I'm an old fogey now so it may be a generational thing

But why is the pregnant woman giving lessons on social constructs out of the blue? No-one asked her to speak about gender and horribly backwards looking ideas about pink for girls and blue for boys did they? I remain puzzled as to why she felt the need to answer a question that had not been asked. Is that normal these days?

About 65cm. Oh no, I'm doing it now. No-one has asked me to measure my computer screen have they? Still, I feel better for having got that off my chest 😆

@pigsDOfly

CardinalLolzy

Sorry if I'm being a bit dim but I don't really understand your response to my post.

I haven't changed what I said or meant just using different words.

At one with = match. Perhaps match would probably have been a better word to use in my second post; perhaps match is less ambiguous.

But if it's not simply about sex based stereotypes i.e. women wear dresses, men wear suits or whatever, then how can it "match" or "be at one with" either sex? What makes someone who believes their gender is "she" be at one with a female or be at odds with a male other than socially constructed stereotypes of the sexes? I.e girls like pink, boys like blue.

It can't be argued that it's not about just wanting to wear a dress (or some other stereotype for the female sex) when that is literally what gender is, just social stereotypes. You can't change your sex by just conforming to the stereotypes of the opposite.

We'd be far better off just trying to do away with all the boys like X and girls like Y nonsense than all this ridiculous trope about 64 genders and men being able to change to a woman.

Basically if you're a guy who wants to wear a dress and make up and all the rest, that's fine. But it doesn't suddenly make you a she. Dresses and makeup aren't exclusive to the female sex. Socially they perhaps are, which is what needs to change.

@PigsDOfly
I'm also interested in having you spell out to me an example of
one or more 'matching' and 'non matching' sex/gender(s), without, obviously using regressive tropes such as pink/blue or cars/dolls etc because I'm sure you don't agree with that reactionary nonsense? Until this is explained I can't see what all the new genders are matching or failing to match with?

To be fair to Pigs I assumed they were responding to my questions about how it's possible for a bodily sex to match an innate gender identity, but they may not have been, so I've possibly just confused them

Thanks CL 😊 The thing is, I’m not actually fussed who explains it to me. I’d just like a clear explanation. If no one can break it down so that I can understand it, I’ll continue believing there are only two sexes and that gender is a pointless social construct which we should be trying to get rid of rather than adding a seemingly infinite number of extra ones 😟

@CardinalLolzy

To be fair to Pigs I assumed they were responding to my questions about how it's possible for a bodily sex to match an innate gender identity, but they may not have been, so I've possibly just confused them

Yes, it was in answer to your post and this precisely what I meant.

The idea of all the new genders, as I said in a pp, seems to me to be trying to pigeonhole everyone instead of accepting that people can be fluid in their sexuality and gender, and if you accept that, then sexuality and gender can be matched.

I don't see the need for all the different genders.

If you accept that you are a man or a woman, can't you also accept that the gender of a man or woman can cover quite a wide range of types; why the need for all this narrow stereotyping.

And no, I don't believe that in order to be a woman you have to like pink frills and high heels or in order to be a proper man you have to have a deep voice and a hair chest and never wear anything that could be construed as vaguely feminine .

Wtf? Sexuality has nothing to do with gender.

That’s not quite true though is it, that sexuality has nothing to do with gender?

Most females/ women are attracted to men, and most males/ men are attracted to women. Coincidence?

More gay men are likely to have had a history of extreme gender non conforming behaviour than heterosexual men. In fact quite a few gay men have said they really wanted to be girls when they were children (and glad they didn’t go down the trans route). There is a strong link between gender nonconformity in childhood and homosexuality.

So not true to say ‘nothing’ to do with each other?

Oh god she's one of those!

PrettyVacancy

Yes, that's exactly my point.

All this stupid gender nonsense and some people wanting to create more and different genders so people can 'fit in'.

It's all bollocks frankly.

@Ijustknowitstimetogo it had nothing to do with gender if you believe gender isn't a 'thing', if you don't subscribe to gender ideology. Which I don't.

I think sexuality is related to biological sex, not 'gender'.

Totally agree with you pigs! Utter bollox, the lot of it and no one can explain it without resorting to nonsensical pink v blue crap. It beats me how many worshippers there are in this new religion and yet not a single one can come up with a coherent argument to back up their belief system. ‘No debate’ means ‘We have literally no valid points so leave us alone or we’ll threaten you with violence’!

@PrettyVacancy

Totally agree with you pigs! Utter bollox, the lot of it and no one can explain it without resorting to nonsensical pink v blue crap. It beats me how many worshippers there are in this new religion and yet not a single one can come up with a coherent argument to back up their belief system. ‘No debate’ means ‘We have literally no valid points so leave us alone or we’ll threaten you with violence’!

This. Don't forget calling us all bigots as well.

I think sexuality is related to biological sex, not 'gender'.

That doesn’t explain the higher level of observed gender non conforming behaviour in pre-gay children.
Just because you don’t believe in it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

Yeah, I utterly reject that assertion as well. It’s like being in a primary school playground with all the pathetic name calling 🙄

WTF is a pre gay child? What is gender non conforming behaviour? What does it involve? Please don’t tell me all little girls like pink and dolls and all little boys like blue and cars because that’s a pile of crap and you know it.

Fucking hell, pre-gay child. What a fucking phrase that is. Ridiculous.

Children who grow up to be gay or lesbian as adults being less likely to be confined by ridiculous stereotypes does nothing to prove that 'gender' is anything more than a load of bollocks.

Just because you believe in it doesn’t mean it DOES exist.

Carry on putting people in boxes though. That's the speciality of this new belief system.

Oh fuck knows if I worded that right, my head hurts from all the absolute mind fuckery of this nonsense today.

Children who grow up to be gay may be less likely to be confined by rigid, ridiculous stereotypes. That doesn't prove that gender is real.

The baby is male or female.

It will develop a personality and hopefully be free to express his or herself however they want to.

@Ijustknowitstimetogo

Wtf? Sexuality has nothing to do with gender.

That’s not quite true though is it, that sexuality has nothing to do with gender?

Most females/ women are attracted to men, and most males/ men are attracted to women. Coincidence?

More gay men are likely to have had a history of extreme gender non conforming behaviour than heterosexual men. In fact quite a few gay men have said they really wanted to be girls when they were children (and glad they didn’t go down the trans route). There is a strong link between gender nonconformity in childhood and homosexuality.

So not true to say ‘nothing’ to do with each other?

this really is rubbish - kids are kids without all the adult framing, leave them alone. Most of the readers here will remember being gender non-conforming. It is socially introduced, then enforced.

If she (or should I say they) is going to get all funny about you asking a very normal question I would just be more direct and say "ok then, are you going to find out if it has a penis or a vagina?". I wouldn't acknowledge the whole gender thing, it's not relevant at this stage and the likelihood is very much that the child will identify as its biological sex anyway.....

I think it would be accurate to say that "effeminate" behavior is a normal variant of male behavior and "masculine" behavior is a normal variant of female behavior. It doesn't create a new gender. It is part of the normal range of male and female behavior. And that all males and females may express different aspects of what is stereotypically called male and female behavior (which of course can differ across any culture) at any time. In fact, because different cultures have different ideas about what is stereotypically feminine and masculine behavior, it would be more accurate to say that male and female people exhibit a range of behaviors.

@PrincessNutella

I think it would be accurate to say that "effeminate" behavior is a normal variant of male behavior and "masculine" behavior is a normal variant of female behavior. It doesn't create a new gender. It is part of the normal range of male and female behavior. And that all males and females may express different aspects of what is stereotypically called male and female behavior (which of course can differ across any culture) at any time. In fact, because different cultures have different ideas about what is stereotypically feminine and masculine behavior, it would be more accurate to say that male and female people exhibit a range of behaviors.

Absolutely spot on.

don’t tell me all little girls like pink and dolls and all little boys like blue and cars because that’s a pile of crap and you know it.

Of course not. There are boys who like pink and play with dolls who don’t grow up to be gay. And vice versa. But there are patterns of behaviour and I’m talking about severe gender dysphoria or extreme gender non conformity. Not just ‘liking pink’; that means nothing.

But most severely gender variant children grow up to be gay or (less likely) transgender.

There’s lots of research on this
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18981931/

www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2021.632784/full

(Or bisexual, sorry mustn’t forget the bisexuals!)