"We can know the baby's sex but not its gender"

[Rumplestrumpet]

Hi all, I'm feeling a bit dim on this but know it's a sensitive subject so didn't want to ask IRL ....

I was chatting to a colleague about her pregnancy and asked if she knows whether it's a boy or girl. She said she didn't want to find out because it doesn't matter. I agreed - saying of course a baby is a baby and who cares what sex it is. But she explained "Well anyway we can only know its sex, but not its gender". Someone else nodded in agreement and I just kept quiet... But honestly I have no idea what this means.

I personally am critical of the idea that your sex has to define you, and hate the sexist stereotypes people fall for with small children ("boys will be boys" and all that nonsense). But it didn't sound like she meant this.

What would you understand by this?

Fwiw she's in her 20s and I'm an old fogey now so it may be a generational thing

The sex is male or female but she doesn't agree to the social constructs of gender roles

No, that's exactly what this kind of nonsense is reinforcing. These stupid stereotypes wouldn't exist without the constructs of 'gender roles'.

We wouldn't be in this mess if we were only interested in biological sex and not stupid rigid 'gender' boxes. Boys can play with barbie if they want, they're still boys.

Gender is bollocks. #SexMatters

I fear for future generations.

I think she was just being a bit woke tbh. Not that it really matters, but you did ask and that’s what I think in this particular situation

Good for your colleague feeling comfortable to express her opinion OP

@EleanorOlephantisjustfine

I fear for future generations.

Agree!

This is such a big thing now, but it's nothing new. I wanted to be a boy until around 9, My parents made no big thing of it, I was surrounded by boy cousins, and I so envied them being able to stand up and wee. I dressed as a cowboy, played football and cricket, wore hand me down boy pyjamas, fascinated by the winkel opening. Then one day I decided it was a bit boring and played with the girls in the street, wore dresses etc... I was the typical Tomboy.
I was reading recently about Richard Branson's daughter who was the same.
Any decent parent will go with the flow, without labelling their child.

This was 50byears ago, apparently my aunt was the same, she is 75 now!

People need to get over their obsession with gender IMO.

Did someone ask her if she was going to find out the baby's "gender"? And she was pointing out that this was impossible. The rise of gender reveal parties suggest that many people don't know the difference between sex and gender.

@Rumplestrumpet I'm not the only parent with an unhappy confused child unfortunately. It's alarmingly "popular", a huge increase of kids, in particular of ASD girls, identifying as transgender.

We've somehow become a culture that thinks the solution to identity confusion is to pop pills and have surgery - why??? Numerous people have told me they're "sorry you're going through this" because they recognise the madness and difficulties of the situation (for my child as well as us supporting parents) but few can or are doing anything to stand up against this cultural madness.

Because we've been socially conditioned to #BeKind, Acceptance Without Exception.

Except that grown up middle aged men wanting to change their gender is nothing like what teens are wanting to do and are doing to their bodies. Yet because we are being forced to accept all manner of differences in adults, adolescents are encouraged down an irreversible path (which many of those adults may not have done to themselves, because they couldn't when younger or are choosing not to as adults).

And before I get crushed as a whatever-phobe, I am completely accepting and supporting of people living their life as they wish as long as it doesn't hurt others. And in my own case, I just wish my child is happy in themselves.

We've regressed from fighting against sexist stereotypes to fully endorsing and embracing them - to whose benefit I ask? Men and the patriarchy, of course.

And private "gender scans" because it sounds nicer on the marketing than offering a "sex scan" which is what it actually is...

God, I've heard it all. What a wanky comment!

@Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons

She thinks sexist stereotypes are real & people should be reclassified as a different gender/stereotype if they don't fit the stereotype box associated with their sex

oxalisRed

Very well put. This sums it up very clearly.

I do not have a "gender". I am a woman - human adult female. The rest of it is just personality.

@ohthatbloodycat

God, I've heard it all. What a wanky comment!

That was my thought.

You'll know the sex because that is a real thing that exists.

Rubyupbeat exactly. Was really interesting reading about Richard Branson's daughter recently- these days with all this gender twattery and wokery she'd have been encouraged to go down a very medicalised route with horrible consequences.

@WaterOffADucksCrack

Sex is biological, gender is a social construct, that's what she was referring to I believe.

Well put.

By the time the baby is born there may be another 217 more genders. But there can only ever be two sexes.

I personally am critical of the idea that your sex has to define you, and hate the sexist stereotypes people fall for with small children ("boys will be boys" and all that nonsense). But it didn't sound like she meant this.

I'm guessing by this comment you know exactly what she meant so no need to pull the faux wide eyes, "whatever could it mean" thing. Just say "I heard this today and it was ridiculous! AIBU?"

She's technically correct though. But she'd be equally correct if she said "we can know it's sex but we won't know if it will identify as a furry, introvert, or a Tory. Gender isn't real. It's not the same as being a woman or a man. It's made up nonses for children that have got bored of documenting their clothes on instagram.

It's a lot of bullshit, smile, nod and ignore,

but do feel sorry for the child who will be raised pressured into that nonsense. Poor kid.

At least she used the word sex and didn't say AFAB or AMAB. Now that would have been wanky.

This thread will likely get moved to the Sex & Gender board OP.

I've got a bollocking on the pregnancy boards for calling it a 'gender scan' not a 'sex scan'! I believe that is because 'gender' is a lovely polite word, not like dirty old sex

I'd be interested to know how one does find out one's gender though? I've asked several times and even the people who are very vocal about gender being so important to one's identity that it needs to supersede sex in law and policy (e.g. women's prisons are single-gender, not single-sex, and gender is largely self-reported). They haven't been able to tell me apart from asking if I'm more comfortable being called 'he' or 'she' which doesn't recognise the fact that these words were always sex-based (not gender-based) when I was learning language, so of course that will be the main influencer there.

If you speak to your friend again, can you ask specifically how someone can find out what their gender is?

@oxalisRed

I really feel for you. My friend's daughter and her friendship group change genders from female to male to questioning and she worries about taking action (hormone treatment/surgery) before a person has really examined all the options and not just as a reaction to how crap some females have it in society/fashion/ etc. It really is quite fashionable at school to question and I wonder how many really are 'in the wrong body' and how many are going through the usual teenage angst that occurs in most individuals

She sounds like a twat. Ask her what names she likes, I bet they won't all be gender-neutral ones.

Sex is a biological reality, fixed for life at conception. Gender is a concept from grammar, not biology or anthropology, which has been misappropriated by activists of various sorts who wish our society ill.

Sex is the bit involving chromosomes, genetalia and so on.

Gender is much more nuanced, and includes identity ("I'm a woman") and expression (I dress in a broadly feminine manner)

For most people, their sex and gender correlate, but not for everyone (non-binary people, trans people and so on).