What do men even do?

[dohdohdoh]

Since having kids I look at men and think what do you even do?!

What hurdles do they have in their life?

I have a great partner and we try to make things 50:50 but I hate that:

• Despite being in similar lines of work he earns more than me
• I have had to take maternity leave because financially he earns more than me and it "makes sense" (so hasn't had to look after 2 under 3 for the last year, while he's at work)
• That raising my children is literally worth no money in return (I don't get anything for the last 12 weeks of my 1 year of mat leave - yes I'm "lucky" to get something for the first 9 months)

And basically all the other minor and major injustices of being a woman!

I just can't help but think if once women give birth and society deemed men should then look after a baby for the next 12 months, they'd instantly demand full pay for the whole period and everyone would think, yes that's reasonable. But as women we should just be grateful for any morsels we can get.

Sorry this is just a rant I guess but I can't believe its the 21st century and we are still screwed over. And now when I look at men I just think what do you even do? How much do you pull your weight at home? Who have you trampled on to get to where you are professionally? I judge them, I judge them harshly.

Men expect women to work and earn now, but don't want to step up and help carry the mental load, and do more housework or parenting in return
And how many women show any I test and care over their partner's mental stress at work? Very little. They take it for granted that they go to work, do little whilst enjoying socialising with colleagues, have freedom to take breaks, go to lunches, and then come home, refreshed as when they left in the morning and expected to pick things up from there.

I worked with such men and I felt really sorry for them. Their wives had no interest at all in their working life yet expected them to be fully involved in their wife every day issues, sympathise with every slight difficulties they faced. Wives who were just so self absorbed, they really believed they carried the whole world on their shoulders.

Because women have so much more to lose than men they have to fight, constantly, to be afforded the same rights as men
This is so much rubbish. Every woman has the choice to have a career, and indeed, many do. What you can't have is you cake and eat it, as in, not bother to get on the ladder in the first place, want to stay home with the kids when they are little, have more than 1 or 2, work PT, yet still have the successful and well paid career.

Women who manage to gave kids and a career are not lucky. They made the same choices and sacrifices that men make to do so.

Women who manage to gave kids and a career are not lucky. They made the same choices and sacrifices that men make to do so.
As I’ve literally just pointed out, no we don’t, we make more sacrifices to get to the same place and we have to conquer more unconscious bias.

I have to fight harder to make the same career gains despite struggling through months of illness then 10 month gaps
Yet how many women would a really give up the chance to be pregnant? Because yes, it comes with some shit but also with some advantages that are priceless. Like most women I know, however much I moaned about pregnancy and giving birth, looking back, I wouldn't have traded places.

@vivainsomnia

I totally disagree with you OP. More and more men are becoming sahd and they are portrayed as lazy, pathetic for leaving all the stress of supporting the family to their wife, fingers pointed out if they dare do anything once in a very while for themselves.

A good friend of my oh is a sahd. His wife his a doctor and it suits them very well. She's very happy as she lives her career. They are a very strong couple. Yet he gets jibs all the time and people, men and women, make her a hero insisting how lucky he is.

When the kids started school, they agreed that he would just work as a self-employed plasterer. Again, he got teased over and over how he had it good, and his wife was a martyr. They both got thick skin and laugh it off, but it's quite disgusting to see the discrimination they've faced.

I agree the attitude to SAHD needs to change, my husband is a SAHD and these are the exact comments my husband and I face.

Also on the comments about mat leave impacting career, for me I joined my company 20 years ago and after two kids I'm still on the same rung of the career ladder as the male friends I joined with 20 years ago. Girls joining the workforce need strong female mentors to help them navigate the workplace to ensure there not negatively impacted by being a women and taking time off for kids.

@Jellybabiesforbreakfast

The question really is why do women settle for less? Often because their wish for children is stronger so they relegate themselves. I wouldn't have had a child in those circumstances.

The other reason is because, as @Roomonb said, the inequalities are so much more apparent after having children. Before children, it can be quite hard to spot them since there is more financial equality and less to do. After children, many women are in a catch-22 situation - they recognise the shitness of it all, but they are too tired with young children and doing everything or they can't afford to leave. They know they married a "dud" but it's quite difficult to extricate themselves.

Also, our standards for men are woeful. MIL told me the other day that she though DH was a great dad since he plays with our DC and takes them to the park. Apparently, her DH never did that. It's a bit much in her view that I should also expect him to locate the washing-machine and dishwasher and operate them now and then . DH does sometimes manage to do this but then stands there looking like a puppy who thinks he deserves a treat for sitting on command .

My DH is in his 70s.

He worked full time, I didn't. (Not at all for first few years. Wasn't feasible)

He cooked, cleaned, did DIY, cars etc. Changed nappies, fed, bathed, played and did his share of nights.

All depends on your expectations. Ours were that the children weren't my job, we were both parents

@Manzanilla55

Since having d s I have learned women are indeed very different from men. I don't have patience with men I really dont.

That statement suggests you don't have time for your DS, that sounds very sad for you poor DS, if that was indeed what you mean't.

And yes, if I'm absolutely honest, the older I get the more I think men are by far the weaker sex - less adaptable, less resourceful, less articulate, less perceptive, less collaborative, less loving, lower pain thresholds, more selfish. And absolutely crippled by their own emotional illiteracy, which turns any complex emotions they can't handle into the blunt instrument that is anger.

As regards to the above comment as a man who looks after a disabled wife, looks after the children and in between runs a part time business from home , I just get on with life. surely people just cope , male or female.

I do not have children but I tried to have a conversation with DP about the finances of having children last night and OMFG it's as if he's never even had to consider "where is the money actually coming from?" And he has a DS from a previous relationship.

Honestly, I felt us growing apart with every or I uttered and every blank stare and "I don't know" that he returned.

For context, we both earn within 5k of each other, I own my apartment whereas he rents, I'm mid-30s, he's mid-40s. He has a DS-nearly-13 and we live in France which has largely family friendly policies... but as above, OMFG.

I asked if we were intending to continue renting or if he'd prefer to buy a stable family home (doesn't know). I asked how we'd split/share finances as a family (I'm for one big family pot, he doesn't know). I asked if he'd take 28 days paid paternal leave (if it's paid, yes). I asked how we might juggle finances if I took the full 1 year parental leave (generous compared with UK but peanuts compared with 2 full time salaries, he didn't know that existed).

It's ok to not know things or to need to think aboout them for a while, but my impression was actually that hed never had to think about it before. With his DS, I believe his ex was unemployed then got a job when the DS was 6 months and they split the cost of a childminder from 6 months to 3 years when he was able to go to proper creche.

It's as if he thought that one would pop out a baby, take the maximum 6 months and then the baby just becomes a split 50/50 cost, which, if your earnings aren't impacted, why would it be anything different? Other PP may think I am exaggerrating but he genuinely looked beweildered by my questions.

"They take it for granted that they go to work, do little whilst enjoying socialising with colleagues, have freedom to take breaks, go to lunches, and then come home"

Of course women who work too, will understand what work is really like, but are probably too busy still working (only a different sort) and shit, to listen to hubby about how hard his "day" was, because their day isn't over yet. So many men finish work for the day, then still expect their wife who works too, to cook for them, help kids with homework etc, while they sit on their arses with their feet up.

I can see the appeal of having a working wife, she earns half the income, but also cooks your meals, does your laundry, cleans, sorts out the kids...

My own mother and stepfather have this sort of set up, and I had it too, until I thought wtf am I doing?? Why am I being this grown ass man's skivvy?

as a mum with my eldest nearly 30 yrs old, I didnt have maternity leave or pay as I did not have a job when I got pregnant. The only advice I can offer now is whatever you end up doing, fulltime mum or not is keep paying in to your private pension, he is earning, ask him to pay in.

I stayed home for many years and then worked part time or self employed in low paying jobs. It has taken me till 2 years ago to get my husband via his now own company of which I am a director to pay into my private pension.

His excuse years before whilst working for a multi national was, not enough money ! spare and that his pension was going to be huge and would cover us.
Well it is a good size, but I feel its still all in his power to use or abuse.
Money is power, make sure you have your own...

@slightlysnippy

''This might sound controversial but things were better before, men had their role as the bread winner and women had their role as the nurturing type. Society is so mixed up now days''

That's why you should choose a good husband with prospects, who will respect and care for you. So many people get divorced these days, having children with 2 or 3 different men, it's insane, nothing is sacred anymore.''

WTAF ARE YOU TWO ON, yeah lets rely on men to look after us, like the good little women we are

absolutely

and also to add its an absolute waste of 50% of the possible talent out there that could be building and shaping society

Women's brains arent just for babymaking and sweeping. That womans brain could have been the scientist that found the cure for cancer, or the politician who changed some laws to help child poverty.

And avoiding the drugging up of women for whatever reasons to help them cope with the sheer boredom if being a housewife is not your thing. gin. valium. prozac. Sertraline. an array of stuff labelled 'mothers little helper'. the names and drugs change, but the need never seems to go away

@vivainsomnia

I have to fight harder to make the same career gains despite struggling through months of illness then 10 month gaps Yet how many women would a really give up the chance to be pregnant? Because yes, it comes with some shit but also with some advantages that are priceless. Like most women I know, however much I moaned about pregnancy and giving birth, looking back, I wouldn't have traded places.

1000% not the point? My husband wanted children too. Yes I chose it. But I’ve also had to fight harder to make the same progress at work while becoming/being a parent. My husband and I have made the same choices to have children, I’ve had to work harder for my career.

NettleTea

Women's brains arent just for babymaking and sweeping. That womans brain could have been the scientist that found the cure for cancer

YES. It was in fact a woman's brain (and hard work over many years of research) which paved the way for the mRNA vaccines which are getting us out of the covid shithole in the long term.

www.timesofisrael.com/the-hungarian-immigrant-behind-messenger-rna-key-to-covid-19-vaccines/

And, no, she wasn't lauded at the time, her work was considered a dead end and she lost her funding (basically, lost her job). She was sidelined into a low rung research position and that was that. Says it all really, doesn't it?

@vivainsomnia what is your point there? That because women choose to have children we should also just accept that we may be disadvantaged at work? That we should say this was our choice and cut back our hours? I can’t see any point to this comment that isn’t a load of you can never have it better and it’s all your own fault bollocks.

And once our childbearing years are over we have to go through the menopause and jump over hurdles to get a prescription for HRT. Once we have the precious prescription, we get told by the pharmacist that there is a HRT shortage.
If men had to go through the menopause I don't think this would happen.

and also to add its an absolute waste of 50% of the possible talent out there that could be building and shaping society
Women's brains arent just for babymaking and sweeping.

SAHPs are building and shaping society, and you know perfectly well that it's more than just babymaking and sweeping. Yes, we need mothers to be scientists and leaders too, but we can value that without insulting full time carers, who are awesome.

The answer? Don't have kids. Live carefree, like a bloke.
I think the point and the problem is that while women have to make the choice between kids or freedom, men don't. Men 'have it all', but that phrase wasn't coined for them and no one wrings their hands or passes moral judgement about it like they do with women.

Men in general are just not as interested in spending time with their kids, or sacrificing as much for their kids, as women are.

As a consequence women work harder in the family than men do. I don’t see that changing.

I've never understood why anyone should expect money from their employer or the state for their own personal choice regarding starting a family. I wasn't working in the 1980s, as I had moved area with my husband for his job when we decided it was time to try and start our family, there were no benefits then in that situation, only child benefit. We made plans for our life based on his wage only.

@Unsuremover

My friends live in Sweden, they might as well live on a different planet. They moved their when they were newly weds and had their kids their. We’d never really discussed maternity/paternity leave or childcare until recently. Honestly, I felt sick. They have such a different set up, so much so anyone I tell thinks I’m making it up. And yes the taxes but this couple don’t see it because they get so much back, including 3 years leave to be split between them anyway they see fit.

It is possible but we don’t prioritise it in this country and it wildly unpopular to suggest that the continuation of the species is worth spending money on.

Abslutely some of this is localised.

I live in Denmark (although I'm British) and I'm a dad to a two year old. We don't get as long to split - only a year really, but it's very common for the dad to take a few months of it. Childcare is very heavily subsidized. Afterschool clubs are attended by the vast majority and run all through the holidays.

But it's the cultural expectations that are different. Dads are more likely to be judged for not spending time with the family. When I deliver/collect my daughter and step daughters to/from daycare, kindergarten, school etc. there's a very even mix of mums and dads.

This is in the outer suburbs of Copenhagan. I've also met people from more rural areas that report that it's normal for men (not women!) to still pop home at the weekends after they've moved out to get their laundry done by their mum!

And yes, the patriachy is alive and well in other aspects, the war is far from won but a few more battles have gone the right way, I guess. Domestic violence is as problematic as anywhere, I think - just so it doesn't look like I'm trying to suggest "men are not a problem here" - we still very much are.

As for the 'weaker sex.' I have a theory about why a horrible number of men fully develop and show their inner abusive arsehole during pregnancy. It's awe inspiring. It's beyond anything we could do. And I think for misogynists it's just too intimidating for them to deal with any other way. I know my partner is stronger. I know my mum was. I'm pleased for my mum that my dad seems to realise the same. I think among the many dark motivations that seeded the patriarchy was a strong envy of what women can be when they're not too busy trying not be crushed under our heels.

I also think mums should have their village - I have been pretty committed to being as involved with my daughter as possible (and my lovely step daughters as well) but I can also see that when my partner is with her mum and other women in general, mothers or not, she gets some sort of community-based happiness that I'm just not part of, and can't give myself. It doesn't take away from my bond with my daughter. I think women should have that.

@Draineddraineddrained

On the one hand of course there will be tons of people piling in to say "it's your choooooice" - to have kids, to have them with a man who earns more than you, not to make shared parental leave a condition of having kids with him, etc etc etc. And all the women who will blame you for "allowing" your DP not to pull his weight.

But fundamentally yes, being the childbearing sex fucks us over fundamentally in the finance and independence stakes in a capitalist society where our main value is as units of economic production. Indeed you could say the whole patriarchal shit show is as a result of this as it boils down, basically, to men wanting to control women as much as possible so they can be absolutely sure she bears their offspring and no other male's.

And yes, if I'm absolutely honest, the older I get the more I think men are by far the weaker sex - less adaptable, less resourceful, less articulate, less perceptive, less collaborative, less loving, lower pain thresholds, more selfish. And absolutely crippled by their own emotional illiteracy, which turns any complex emotions they can't handle into the blunt instrument that is anger.

Mothers' commune anyone???

You are my people 🙌🏻

@Katekarate

I think it's when women have children that issues around inequality really show themselves. That's why young women often think things are better than older women do.

Yup

@quizqueen it’s a rational thing to do as overall economic productivity is increased when more women work. So supporting that is just common sense even for Tories. Then there’s the children are essential to continued civilisation aspect which means it’s the right thing to do. Then there’s the employers competing for staff and this is one of the areas they are judged on, I’d leave a company that didn’t have decent flex and parental leave policies and support those.

Yes, it's unfair. But the saddest thing? Not thinking that you are supremely lucky to be able t spend this time caring for the children you presumably wanted and really love.

@81Byerley

Yes, it's unfair. But the saddest thing? Not thinking that you are supremely lucky to be able t spend this time caring for the children you presumably wanted and really love.

No, the saddest thing is that people will admit it's unfair and then try to use some sentimental tosh to get you to overlook it and feel guilty for noticing that it's unfair.