What do men even do?

[dohdohdoh]

Since having kids I look at men and think what do you even do?!

What hurdles do they have in their life?

I have a great partner and we try to make things 50:50 but I hate that:

• Despite being in similar lines of work he earns more than me
• I have had to take maternity leave because financially he earns more than me and it "makes sense" (so hasn't had to look after 2 under 3 for the last year, while he's at work)
• That raising my children is literally worth no money in return (I don't get anything for the last 12 weeks of my 1 year of mat leave - yes I'm "lucky" to get something for the first 9 months)

And basically all the other minor and major injustices of being a woman!

I just can't help but think if once women give birth and society deemed men should then look after a baby for the next 12 months, they'd instantly demand full pay for the whole period and everyone would think, yes that's reasonable. But as women we should just be grateful for any morsels we can get.

Sorry this is just a rant I guess but I can't believe its the 21st century and we are still screwed over. And now when I look at men I just think what do you even do? How much do you pull your weight at home? Who have you trampled on to get to where you are professionally? I judge them, I judge them harshly.

I agree OP. Men have traditionally been designers, had top jobs and been the decision makers; you’d think things would have changed by now but no they haven’t. Just look at the UK government - out of 28 posts in the cabinet only 6 are appointed to women.

@vivainsomnia

*poor mat leave conditions like low SMP or no pay

• because of being the only one with significant time off with the baby end up being the "primary" parent who has to lead on all things related to the child from weaning to school uniforms for the next 18 years as a result
• having to work part time because childcare is so expensive
• or having to pay a fortune in childcare and work full time*

All these are choices. All these come down to JOINT decisions that should be made BEFORE having children.

Morhers are not forced to take 12 months off. I took 6 months after my first and 5 after my second. I would have much preferred to take more but both times I had a very good career opportunity (yes, was looking for jobs whilst in maternity) so I cut it short and this helped my career.

As I worked FT, it was agreed from the start that my oh would do as much as me. We devided tasks, we sticked to them.

Childcare was expensive. I didn't pay for it. WE did.

This post just shows that the issue is that women want their cake and eat it. You just have to see how many absolutely refuse 50/50 arrangement for their kids when they separate because they absolute want the primary care role. Yet everything should be made to allow them to be so AND to access top careers.

Top careers demand sacrifices and commitment that is hard when you are a primary carer. If these roles were so easy, every men and childless women would be there.

Women with primary care of their kids can do it, by giving up some of the benefits that come with being so and/or ensuring more of a share from their partner, but accepting that their progression, and therefore increase in income might be a bit slower.

This post made me laugh out loud. Rarely has the use of "have their cake and eat it" been less apt. How many working mums who are in good careers would use that about themselves? Do it all would be more apt.

This negates the fact that there are centuries of layers of patriarchal bullshit around this issue in that in the last century women have been sold the lie they should be doing it all. Child rearing and maintaining a good career (and a good figure, Friendships, their looks, lest a husband's head be turned). You talk of individual agency and choice. Are you so naive that you think women are to blame for their disadvantaged position in socially? Because you have made all the "RIGHT" choices you are somehow superior? Would you also blame other people who have been placed at a disadvantage by the prevailing societal discourse? People from BAME backgrounds? People with disability.

A massive over simplification of 100s of years of patriarchy and in the last 200 years, capitalism. The balance of power in society does not lie with working mothers. Choices are limited by this.

It is infuriating that there is basically no social 'cost' for a man to having kids. He's more or less expected to keep his job, his career progression, his social life.

It's partially due to this stupid idea that mums must be 'selfless' mums must 'sacrifice' while man brings home the money because he should be focussed on his career, not kids.

Sacrifice @Echobelly? Not all women are career driven. I’m now working part time after being a SAHM for over a decade. Dc are now teens and I have the luxury of having way more free time than my dh who works full time and long hours.

We’ve noticed bendmeoverbackwards for some of

You just have to see how many absolutely refuse 50/50 arrangement for their kids when they separate because they absolute want the primary care role.

Presumably this is fairly often because after years of their husband not stepping up as a parent, they have legitimate doubts about whether he's actually capable of looking after them properly. Or because he's abusive or generally shit. I would once have doubted that, but years hanging around on MN have certainly opened my eyes.

Having children is what screws women

Never a truer word

Having children is what screws women

I recognise the global truth of that while having to admit that what it did for me was allow me to step off a career ladder that I wasn't very interested in climbing, and have quite a nice time.

This post just shows that the issue is that women want their cake and eat it.

Typing this sentence with a straight face as a man would be ridiculous, doing so as a woman is unbelievable.

@bendmeoverbackwards - not implying that motherhood has to be a 'sacrifice', that's why I put it in quotes; I also get annoyed at the assumption that being a SAHM is somehow sacrifical!

But that idea as held by society is part of why women are expected to take the parenting strain and not expect much from a career. Or else are patronised as SAHMs who have obviously nobly given up everything and can't really be happy.

How many working mums who are in good careers would use that about themselves? Do it all would be more apt
They don't, that's the point. Most have made sacrifices, be it shorter maternity leave, stopping at 2 kids even when they craved a 3rd, accepting that kids will be in before and after school care, sending kids when they feel a bit under the weather and feel guilty for it.

Those are the things that many career women do that most mums wouldn't accept.

It isn't impossible at all, and indeed many mums do very well career-wise, but they often have to make the sane sacrifices fathers have to make.

*I think women have much of the above that's not even mentioning the additional pressures and expectations have like:

• having the perfect natural birth
• breastfeeding
• getting your figure back
• enjoying mat leave
• enjoying motherhood*

Most of those additional pressures and expectations come from other women, though.

@TheValeyard no they come from both sexes, and have a long and complex history...

Natural birth - many of the studies and proponents of natural birth have historically been carried out by men - the book Motherhood: A Manifesto goes into detail about how this became the the prevailing ideal of our time, but it's roots are in male doctors who conducted various "studies" in the late 19th and early 20th century - we sold the idea that this is the "best" way to give birth - who wouldn't want the best for their child, and by default any other method of birthing is a fail.

Breastfeeding - this is tied up with natural birth

Getting your figure back - both sexes

Enjoying mat leave/motherhood - both sexes, but I would say women who have kids have, if anything, tried to prepare me for how hard it is.

It's partially due to this stupid idea that mums must be 'selfless' mums must 'sacrifice' while man brings home the money because he should be focussed on his career, not kids.

There always seems to be this idea on threads like this that being the main earner for a household is a situation that is totally without stress, pressure or negative consequences. I can only assume this is from posters who have no f-n idea what being solely responsible for the financial wellbeing of a family is actually like.

The idea there is no 'sacrifice' that comes with this is a joke, if you aren't phenomenally lucky enough to be in a job you enjoy.

Can't take a lower paying/lower stress job or everyone else will suffer. Can't retrain as the mortgage won't pay itself for 2 years. Can't look for a job elsewhere as it would uproot everyone. Can't go part-time or flexi as the job doesn't allow for it, and it's not affordable anyway.

For many if not most people career progression is not about status or selfishness but trying to provide a better life for your family.

all energies are dispensed into another, the light dims.

Oh no, one light might dim for a while, but you've not noticed it's because two or three rather lovely little new lights are running off the same battery as the original light. There's more light overall.

@TheValeyard

It's partially due to this stupid idea that mums must be 'selfless' mums must 'sacrifice' while man brings home the money because he should be focussed on his career, not kids.

There always seems to be this idea on threads like this that being the main earner for a household is a situation that is totally without stress, pressure or negative consequences. I can only assume this is from posters who have no f-n idea what being solely responsible for the financial wellbeing of a family is actually like.

The idea there is no 'sacrifice' that comes with this is a joke, if you aren't phenomenally lucky enough to be in a job you enjoy.

Can't take a lower paying/lower stress job or everyone else will suffer. Can't retrain as the mortgage won't pay itself for 2 years. Can't look for a job elsewhere as it would uproot everyone. Can't go part-time or flexi as the job doesn't allow for it, and it's not affordable anyway.

For many if not most people career progression is not about status or selfishness but trying to provide a better life for your family.

Completely agree

@TheValeyard

It's partially due to this stupid idea that mums must be 'selfless' mums must 'sacrifice' while man brings home the money because he should be focussed on his career, not kids.

There always seems to be this idea on threads like this that being the main earner for a household is a situation that is totally without stress, pressure or negative consequences. I can only assume this is from posters who have no f-n idea what being solely responsible for the financial wellbeing of a family is actually like.

The idea there is no 'sacrifice' that comes with this is a joke, if you aren't phenomenally lucky enough to be in a job you enjoy.

Can't take a lower paying/lower stress job or everyone else will suffer. Can't retrain as the mortgage won't pay itself for 2 years. Can't look for a job elsewhere as it would uproot everyone. Can't go part-time or flexi as the job doesn't allow for it, and it's not affordable anyway.

For many if not most people career progression is not about status or selfishness but trying to provide a better life for your family.

Except, however much you might hate your job, or constrained it might be you can apply for other jobs (we rarely have the same job for life). You can't apply to not be a parent.

Except, however much you might hate your job, or constrained it might be you can apply for other jobs (we rarely have the same job for life). You can't apply to not be a parent.

Being a parent goes for both men and women. OH turned down promotions because he enjoyed his job and it suited our family life. One of his friends felt stuck as he had a well paid job which provided for the family but he hated. He stuck it out till the kids left uni and then packed it in. Major repercussions as it meant they couldn't afford the big house and holidays, they almost split up as he wasn't providing the lifestyle his wife wanted.

@TheValeyard

It's partially due to this stupid idea that mums must be 'selfless' mums must 'sacrifice' while man brings home the money because he should be focussed on his career, not kids.

There always seems to be this idea on threads like this that being the main earner for a household is a situation that is totally without stress, pressure or negative consequences. I can only assume this is from posters who have no f-n idea what being solely responsible for the financial wellbeing of a family is actually like.

The idea there is no 'sacrifice' that comes with this is a joke, if you aren't phenomenally lucky enough to be in a job you enjoy.

Can't take a lower paying/lower stress job or everyone else will suffer. Can't retrain as the mortgage won't pay itself for 2 years. Can't look for a job elsewhere as it would uproot everyone. Can't go part-time or flexi as the job doesn't allow for it, and it's not affordable anyway.

For many if not most people career progression is not about status or selfishness but trying to provide a better life for your family.

Bollocks. How many of these guys wouldn’t have the same jobs or even more intensive ones without their families? I don’t know anyone who would have taken a step back/down because they were single and could afford it. For the record, I earn more than dh, although not a lot more and perfectly well understand the pressure of bringing in an income.

do you think we've reached the pinnacle of choices and options that don't screw anyone over and that we should therefore be happy with the options on offer to us at the moment? You don't think they could be better?
I think we have enough choices to get in with it rather than moan and act like a martyr, blaming everyone/thing else but ourselves for not having it all.

because I feel like the way life is set up it gives them very few obstacles to navigate, either/or decisions to make which lead to sacrifices
You feel like that because you are only looking at it from a mother's perspective. If you lived life as a stereotypical father, you'd probably have a complete different vision.

I don't think women have it better than men, I think both experience pressures as parents in different ways. Your exemplra very much show this. Both have choices and flexibility to adapt. I do think mothers moan a lot more though.

I became a single mum if two small children with no support from their dad. I became 'mum' and 'dad'. I experienced pressure from both ends. All in all, trying to as objective as I can, I do think that the pressure of ensuring financial comfort, to be afford decent housing, that my kids could enjoy a as normal life as possible, to give them opportunities, was the most difficult one. The fear of losing my job and seeing it all go having noone else to share the burden with was overwhelming at times.

it's all very well saying women "choose" to take time off with kids because they earn less generally, but why is that? Perhaps if the structural inequalities were removed it'd make it easier to address the imbalances in many people's relationships.

Women look to marry up more than men.

Most of those additional pressures and expectations come from other women, though
I think they come from the person themselves. I didn't experience any if these because I really didn't care what other people thought. I did what was right for me and my partner. That's all that mattered.

Except, however much you might hate your job, or constrained it might be you can apply for other jobs (we rarely have the same job for life). You can't apply to not be a parent
This really makes me think you don't really understand how it works. The higher in the career path, the less options you have. The deeper into enduring you provide the best for your family choices you have. Depending on your industry, you might be extremely limited. How many women end up resenting their partner when they have to move miles away for their husbands career? Many men don't want that because they know how I happy it makes the family. So they stay in stressful jobs they hate. Sadly, some wives take it totally for granted.

I'd have hated to be a man years ago when they had to go off fighting in wars, dying in trenches. Some countries still have call up too. It's not always the man who gets it easy.

Most homeless are men. A lot of men do horrible jobs like working sewers, or other low paid menial work.

Most men don't have it that good. It's always those at the top.

Women look to marry up more than men.

Maybe, but to suggest that is caused by inherent female characteristics rather than social conditioning, societal expectations, historical inequality in the workplace and the vulnerable position of women as childbearers would be ridiculous.

@lazylinguist

Women look to marry up more than men.

Maybe, but to suggest that is caused by inherent female characteristics rather than social conditioning, societal expectations, historical inequality in the workplace and the vulnerable position of women as childbearers would be ridiculous.

But that reality is key.

A woman who earns, say, 50k a year or 80k a year (or more) is going to look for someone with at least similar earning potential.

Men earning 80k a year are generally less bothered by what a woman earns and are more concerned about how she looks. Therefore men tend to marry down and women marry up. That's traditionally the case. Now Millenial women are outearning men, marriage rates have really plummeted among that generation.