What do men even do?

[dohdohdoh]

Since having kids I look at men and think what do you even do?!

What hurdles do they have in their life?

I have a great partner and we try to make things 50:50 but I hate that:

• Despite being in similar lines of work he earns more than me
• I have had to take maternity leave because financially he earns more than me and it "makes sense" (so hasn't had to look after 2 under 3 for the last year, while he's at work)
• That raising my children is literally worth no money in return (I don't get anything for the last 12 weeks of my 1 year of mat leave - yes I'm "lucky" to get something for the first 9 months)

And basically all the other minor and major injustices of being a woman!

I just can't help but think if once women give birth and society deemed men should then look after a baby for the next 12 months, they'd instantly demand full pay for the whole period and everyone would think, yes that's reasonable. But as women we should just be grateful for any morsels we can get.

Sorry this is just a rant I guess but I can't believe its the 21st century and we are still screwed over. And now when I look at men I just think what do you even do? How much do you pull your weight at home? Who have you trampled on to get to where you are professionally? I judge them, I judge them harshly.

This might sound controversial but things were better before, men had their role as the bread winner and women had their role as the nurturing type. Society is so mixed up now days

Yeah washing the Valium down with a swig of gin quite often. Or as my MIL was stuck at home with 6 kids and her husband blowing his Friday wage packet on booze and fish and chip suppers leaving pennies over that he begrudge giving her. The kids adored him for that until they actually realised how shit it was. Etc etc

Am, however, very bloody shocked and disappointed that despite at least 50 years of very noisy women pointing this out: the discrimination women with (and without) children face at work still comes as a surprise to so many.

In the hope anyone is paying attention:
1 make sure your pension contributions are up to date (and get a pribmvate one if possible)
2 the menopause sucks and it isn't as far away as you think read up on it (if you can find anything and ask your mum if you can to tell you about hers. Apparently it might be a hereditary thing. Nobody seems sure because there is very little research)

I’m honestly shocked that you think it’s ok to say all of that to your partner, demanding he give up work and do all the housework and childcare, and include a little smiley face at the end of it.

I'm not shocked that you clearly think I should be the one doing it. Why can't he do it? He earns less. If we lose my pay, we would suffer worse financially. Why should I do that just because you think he shouldn't be becoming a sahd?

You are essentially being sexist by saying that I shouldn't be telling him that's how it will be. Men have done this for centuries to women. Why can't he do it? He isn't useless. And he's actually not even against the idea, although he was a bit shocked at first when I suggested it. But he's not the only one in our circle of friends that have done, two of his friends are sahds.

For those saying 'your choice' to have kids- often it's not. For some it's an absolute biological need, for others who are struggling to have children, it's out of their hands.

@59YouWereGr8InLittleMenstruators yes I could afford to buy him out. I owned my own house before we lived together.
If anything my partner is financially reliant on me as I pay for more than he does in terms of our weekly outgoings.
I don't disagree that sexism exists what I find surprising is how many women seem to be saying 'this is the way it is' as if women automatically take on all childcare and lose financial independence but men don't. Most of my friends don't work and are supported by their husbands, that's their choice and they were pleased to do it but in my opinion, there is nothing stopping a woman from getting financial independence, if they want it. It is true I couldn't have had a year mat leave with my 3 children and I work full time but they are the decisions I've made. I think many men would like to work less and have more time with their children too.

I totally disagree with you OP. More and more men are becoming sahd and they are portrayed as lazy, pathetic for leaving all the stress of supporting the family to their wife, fingers pointed out if they dare do anything once in a very while for themselves.

A good friend of my oh is a sahd. His wife his a doctor and it suits them very well. She's very happy as she lives her career. They are a very strong couple. Yet he gets jibs all the time and people, men and women, make her a hero insisting how lucky he is.

When the kids started school, they agreed that he would just work as a self-employed plasterer. Again, he got teased over and over how he had it good, and his wife was a martyr. They both got thick skin and laugh it off, but it's quite disgusting to see the discrimination they've faced.

You could have split parental leave, you could have adopted or used a surrogate so you had no need for you to take leave at all

Speaking as someone adopted, this is both idiotic and offensive.

Adopted children aren't hamsters picked up at pets at home!

In fact they often require a longer parental leave when they move into their new home because of previous trauma or generally being unsettled by such a big change.

Attitudes towards adoption are so depressing still.

Since having d s I have learned women are indeed very different from men. I don't have patience with men I really dont.

@OnlyFoolsnMothers

Yep agreed OP- trust me going back to work isn’t always the answer to equality, more a way of ensuring you do it all and still pay your half!

I completely agree with this. I stayed home with my daughter until she went to school and then I returned to working full time. I had warned my husband that he would have to share the childcare/ housework burden equally... he was fine for the first few weeks. Then my job asked me to work shifts. So I get more days off per week while still working full time and guess what... we're back where we started, me doing all of the child care, school drops, collections and all the house work and cooking while also working full time. It's so unfair. No amount of nagging will change the situation as we eventually just fall back into the same old pattern. I'm so resentful.

@FrangipaniBlue

But why don't they out earn their partners *@NettleTea* ? Pre childbirth I'm talking.

god knows. They should be. They are getting better grades and Im pretty sure they are as good at, if not better, than many men in the same role.

maybe because women often have older partners?

maybe because men overestimate their worth when negotiating for jobs, and get rewarded like that?

Systemic male bias in work promotion

Its all shit either ways

I don't think I can bear to read this thread because I know it will be full of victim blaming misogyny about 'choice'.

But the bottom life is men can make whatever choices they want about having DC's it still only has as much impact on their lives as they want.

It is unfair and women should get full pay mat leave. And free childcare.

Problem is: in our society women are the default parent and housekeeper. It is possible to opt out of this arrangement, but it tends to be a deliberate decision.

My own lived experience reflects this. Over the years I've handed over more and more responsibility to my DH, but each time it has taken deliberate effort. If I hadn't done anything about it I would do 100% of the childcare and 100% of the housework. Even still every Wednesday he needs reminding he's doing the school run and every Thursday he gets confused he doesn't have to do it. We've had the same rota since September!

He's just popped to the shop, he spent 5 minutes asking me what we needed then he asked me for a bag, then he took out a couple of receipts and handed them to me to deal with. It's a tiny silly thing, but even sharing chores more or less 50% I'm still the default. Another example, DH asked if we had pound coins for him to pay for the weekly running club he's just started. I've just said no, despite the fact I do, as if I don't I'll become default for that too! Which is really petty, but I've learnt from experience!

Problem is, it's often easy to justify a decision as though it's independent of the patriarchy. Women often go part-time because they are lower earner so makes more financial sense. I went part time as I earned a really good wage and even 80% would leave me on a decent wage. Every woman I knew in the pandemic who took parental leave or took the bulk of the homeschooling had a good individual reason, but added up these all show women bore the brunt of the pandemic.

There have been generations of women raising boys not to be sexist selfish pricks. It hasn't worked. Wonder why?

.. must be those women didn't try hard enough

I think some women are very very clueless how stressful and mentally pressurising it is to be the main breadwinner and that if anything were to go wrong with your job, it could see your whole family on the street.

Why can't women and men accept that both roles are hard in their own ways. There was a programme over 10 years ago about husband and wives struggling with their marriage trading places. Of course it ended with both being surprised how hard the other one had it.

It's not a competition.

I think getting someone on the same page about kids, childcare and housework helps. But it’s a risk - because both parties may not hold up their end of the bargain.

But I wouldn’t jump to thinking all men are useless from that. I would just think it was my partner. I know some excellent fathers who work and do housework (though they have stay at home wives) - as it should be (as there are always things at home to be done). I work FT.

Tax system encourages 2 family working as overall tax burden is lower. Shared parental leave is good. I hope there can be more widespread flexible working so that more couples can both go part time.

My friends live in Sweden, they might as well live on a different planet. They moved their when they were newly weds and had their kids their. We’d never really discussed maternity/paternity leave or childcare until recently. Honestly, I felt sick. They have such a different set up, so much so anyone I tell thinks I’m making it up. And yes the taxes but this couple don’t see it because they get so much back, including 3 years leave to be split between them anyway they see fit.

It is possible but we don’t prioritise it in this country and it wildly unpopular to suggest that the continuation of the species is worth spending money on.

The problem is the generally women want kids way more than man. We are prepared to accept the financial and structural penalties of the current system because we want kids.

Men, on the whole, do not get broody and want kids enough to sacrifice their careers and financial independence. There are not swathes of men, taking long breaks, asking for part time hours or any of the adjustments which impact a career as they as a sex don’t want to (and yes I know some do before someone brings up their dp who has dropped to pt but it’s incredibly uncommon).

Until women stop having kids due to the shit system then there is no impetus on the government to improve it. Some countries with plummeting birth rates have had to incentivise women to have kids. In this country they don’t (yet) need to yet so we continue to suffer for our desire to have kids.

I think the population will decrease as the years go on as women will think “hang on a minute”.

Single men probably have much the same issues as single women in living their lives. Clothes to wash, meals to make, home to clean, job to do etc.

Married men its' probably down to who you married and how your relationship works. If you choose to have children then really you need to sort out the logistics, no point having kids and then complaining that they take up too much time, cause a pause in your career etc. After I went back to work I was spending a lot of time travelling, OH looked after the girls while I was away, he enjoyed being dad. He turned down promotions because he enjoyed his work and it was convenient for looking after them. In some ways I was jealous of him and his relationship with the girls, they were (and are) daddies girls. I ended up earning more than him and it was never an issue, we both knew how much each other earned, it was all family money (bit old fashioned I suppose). His dad was a manual worker and just handed his pay packet over unopened to his mum each week, OH had the same attitude totally open, we were a unit.

As for the issues of maternity leave, in some ways you should think yourselves lucky its what it currently is. Your employer didn't ask you to have children but you need special handling because you're mum? Having children is a big thing, it has a major impact on your life, it's your life so you take responsibility for it, on your own or with your husband.

Not sure about the
'our whole way of life is ...centred around men'.

Be careful about making assumptions like that. There are plenty of woman centred households. No men in our house.

As someone said, even as a single parent it is better without them.

Women were told we could have it all, instead we just ended up doing it all. Men expect women to work and earn now, but don't want to step up and help carry the mental load, and do more housework or parenting in return.

@Howcanthisbe123

I think the population will decrease as the years go on as women will think “hang on a minute”.

Birth rates drop as women have more control over their fertility. In this country it hasn’t dropped enough to make decision makers worried and that’s before we consider immigration. Our country (and other wealthy nations) is attractive to the vast majority of the worlds population. If we need more young people then we can import them. So there is no need at the moment to incentivise us to have more kids. That might change and countries like japan with low birth rates and a strong societal dislike of immigration are going to need to do something. Someone will say it’s victim blaming but it’s a by-product of a capitalist system. Pay people what they’re prepared to accept. We as women in this country want to have kids even though we suffer financially.

@vivainsomnia

"It's not a competition".

Well, it is, unfortunately. Because women have so much more to lose than men they have to fight, constantly, to be afforded the same rights as men.

If you want financial autonomy you have to work twice as hard as them and, in the first few years after having children, hand your kids over to a childminder at a time when they are tiny and pay through the nose for the privilege.

If you want to remain at home with your children you have to hand over financial autonomy and control to your partner and see your seat at the table progressively diminished as his career and earning power improves and yours shrinks.

In either scenario unless you are extremely lucky you will do the majority of the childcare that's not paid for and almost all the domestic labour. Unless you constantly, constantly fight.

So actually it is a competition, and its not a fair fight. They may be fighting for advancement in their careers. They may be fighting for "work/life balance" or for more money for their hobbies or some other nice-to-have first world condition. We're fighting for our autonomy and financial survival.

I find being a single parent easier, as when I was in a relationship, I felt like I was caring for two children. My ex was fairly independent before we met, but as soon as ds was born, it was like he wanted me to start mothering him too, and not just the baby, "you wash all his clothes!", well yes, he can't walk yet...

@Redwinestillfine

For those saying 'your choice' to have kids- often it's not. For some it's an absolute biological need, for others who are struggling to have children, it's out of their hands.

What rubbish. It is not a need to have children. Whatever way you look at it, it's a choice.

@vivainsomnia

I think some women are very very clueless how stressful and mentally pressurising it is to be the main breadwinner and that if anything were to go wrong with your job, it could see your whole family on the street.

Why can't women and men accept that both roles are hard in their own ways. There was a programme over 10 years ago about husband and wives struggling with their marriage trading places. Of course it ended with both being surprised how hard the other one had it.

It's not a competition.

Some women might be clueless about the stress of being a breadwinner but this is a bit of an insulting generalisation to the many women who work and earn. I earn more than my dh, and I have to keep that up while vomiting my way through pregnancy, have the pressure of performing when I come back from maternity leave, and if dh & I want children which we do, and I want a good career which I do, I have to fight harder to make the same career gains despite struggling through months of illness then 10 month gaps. I’m pregnant with my 3rd dc currently and it’s the first time dh has had parental leave available so will take some this time around. Not in the first 6-8 months as I will be bf, having a baby is not an equal event for both the mother and the father, but after that. Plenty of women face plenty of pressure at work, and the many many single mothers out there is often the sole breadwinner and the sole parent. Don’t tell us women don’t understand this pressure.