What do men even do?

[dohdohdoh]

Since having kids I look at men and think what do you even do?!

What hurdles do they have in their life?

I have a great partner and we try to make things 50:50 but I hate that:

• Despite being in similar lines of work he earns more than me
• I have had to take maternity leave because financially he earns more than me and it "makes sense" (so hasn't had to look after 2 under 3 for the last year, while he's at work)
• That raising my children is literally worth no money in return (I don't get anything for the last 12 weeks of my 1 year of mat leave - yes I'm "lucky" to get something for the first 9 months)

And basically all the other minor and major injustices of being a woman!

I just can't help but think if once women give birth and society deemed men should then look after a baby for the next 12 months, they'd instantly demand full pay for the whole period and everyone would think, yes that's reasonable. But as women we should just be grateful for any morsels we can get.

Sorry this is just a rant I guess but I can't believe its the 21st century and we are still screwed over. And now when I look at men I just think what do you even do? How much do you pull your weight at home? Who have you trampled on to get to where you are professionally? I judge them, I judge them harshly.

@MaxwellsChocolate

I often wonder how our society would be today if it had been matriarchal for the last few centuries!

Read the novel ‘The Power’ which imagines this very scenario.

I got three months full pay on maternity leave. I think nine months is pretty good, albeit this was many years ago. No one is forcing you to take 12 months off. In fact 12 months seems like a long time.

It’s always been a mans world. I think in so many respects men have a better deal. Who knows if it will ever change. I’m not sure we can ever be the same because we’re not the same.

I knew what a shitty deal women got and yet here I am. I was discussing pensions with my older friend recently who raised two children and there wasn’t NI contributions or something when she was raising her two. She said she lost out on so much for raising her two. I remember thinking I’m glad I haven’t had kids as my pension is looking okay as I have been contributing a fair bit …. I was unknowingly pregnant whilst thinking this. I’ve since reduced my pension contribution considerably in order to save for mat leave.

I would honestly love a girl but I don’t see much change in her future either and that’s depresses and scares me.

I said similar to my dh the other day - women go through so much in life, periods, pregnancy, childbirth, breastfeeding, pumping, vast majority of single parents are women, we're paid less, sexually degraded and objectified, cat-called on the street etc etc yet men seem to just cruise through life.

Well, In my case 'he' did precisely nothing even when I laid it on the line for him.

It became patently obvious that life as a full time working single mum would be easier than living with him so I left. A decade later he's still outraged. I have a lovely life in comparison

Are you sure yours is great? Life shouldn't leave you wanting to rant.

Have to say I really didn't like "The Power" because it didn't ask "what if society was matriarchal" but "what if women dominated the world like men do". The assumption that were the physical power differential resolved we too would be bullies and rapists seemed a bit trapped by the present paradigm to me.

@Katekarate

You could have split parental leave, you could have adopted or used a surrogate so you had no need for you to take leave at all

How would that work then? You adopt a child or have a baby via a surrogate and put them straight into childcare without taking leave Heaven help us

I thought this as well, or did I imagine 14 months of adoption leave?

Agreed Draineddraineddrained I've a friend who adopted and I know how rigorous that process is, they wouldn't let somebody not take time off quite the opposite.

Using a surrogate- which is rare- and then not taking parental leave is not something which I can imagine anyone ever doing (thankfully)

I’ve been astounded by the inequality that comes with motherhood. My DH does so much but one man cannot rectify the years of patriarchal bullshit that created this broken system.

Since having DD 18 months ago I have come to resent all men, their privilege and their sense of fucking self worth.

I understand why you’re annoyed with this outcome. But it’s something you had and have control over. As a PP has said, there’s no reason why you should ‘have’ to take maternity leave because your DH earns more. And I'm sure you’re more than capable of earning the same as your DH, if youre in a similar line of work, similar qualifications etc.

Men shouldn’t be required to take the same amount of time off for parental leave as their partners, if that’s not what they want and they’d prefer to work and pay for childcare. Just like women have this choice too.

The question really is why do women settle for less? Often because their wish for children is stronger so they relegate themselves. I wouldn't have had a child in those circumstances.

The other reason is because, as @Roomonb said, the inequalities are so much more apparent after having children. Before children, it can be quite hard to spot them since there is more financial equality and less to do. After children, many women are in a catch-22 situation - they recognise the shitness of it all, but they are too tired with young children and doing everything or they can't afford to leave. They know they married a "dud" but it's quite difficult to extricate themselves.

Also, our standards for men are woeful. MIL told me the other day that she though DH was a great dad since he plays with our DC and takes them to the park. Apparently, her DH never did that. It's a bit much in her view that I should also expect him to locate the washing-machine and dishwasher and operate them now and then . DH does sometimes manage to do this but then stands there looking like a puppy who thinks he deserves a treat for sitting on command .

And I'm sure you’re more than capable of earning the same as your DH, if youre in a similar line of work, similar qualifications etc

Yes because the gender pay gap doesn't exist

Well put @SunflowerGiraffe

Although I hope men don’t have to be all those things you say, and that it’s possible to raise better ones.

You don't have to take a year! I know a colleague who went back after 4 months.... (not saying I would recommend, but....)

@MaskingForIt

Go back to work after 9 months then. It isn’t compulsory to have a whole year off.

Many women do that and it still does not resolve the disparity of the majority of childrearing responsibility falling on them. I went back after 6 months. Still was the default parent, even though the higher earner. Now divorced. Many men simply will not pull their weight even if their wives are insistent about it: it requires total cultural change in society.

In last few days, My tame male housemates...
... fixed a tyre puncture on my bike (just did it), I didn't ask
... shared my interests
... Laughed at my jokes
... cooked tea, did all the shopping & most the laundry & dishwasher loading
... loaned me £2 to buy strawberries
... coo'd over the cat with me
... sorted the teenager's new data phone package
... got up at 5:50am on a Sunday to do their paper rounds
... supported teen DC to do sports events

I'm probably the useless housemate, tbh. Maybe my tame household males should start slagging off my entire sex based on my inadequate contributions.

If you're doing the same job for the same employer with the same qualifications and experience and you're earning less then that's illegal - if not, you're not earning less because you're a woman, you're earning less because you're less qualified or less experienced or doing a less valuable job.

This is a false dichotomy. There are many reasons that women earn less than men on average.

Some are to do with traditionally male roles being paid more. So yes, people in those roles if female will be paid the same by law. But those professions are discouraged for women, often involve a toxic work environment and have the least flexibility to work around families etc because they are dominated by men (I work in one).

In almost all professions, even those dominated by women, the majority of senior management/ executive level are men and there is an inherent bias to promoting men over women for that reason (unconscious bias, but still discriminative in effect).

Many women who have taken time off for maternity leaves are just as qualified as men in their workplace. Often it is just 6-9 months, nothing in the context of a career. Even if you do it twice. In my 20s I worked 100 hour weeks so have made up my maternity leave time many times over! Yet still men are more likely to be promoted than women, especially mothers, due to people's perceptions, or prejudices about flexible working etc and inability to separate this from competence and skill and commitment.

Things are improving slowly but your implication that discrimination doesn't exist is not remotely in line with the data.

@Katekarate

I think it's when women have children that issues around inequality really show themselves. That's why young women often think things are better than older women do.

Absolutely agree. I thought equality was pretty much a done deal until I became a mother.

Some women are happy to return to work after 4 months, that is their right and their choice, and there should be no judgment on that.

Some women, me included, have reasonable maternity packages, and don't have to reply on SMP. Some, me included, have fantastic DHs who do more than pull their weight, who completely share finances, and who approach fatherhood through a prism of equality . That's all great.

But life is not like that for everyone, and I dont think it is reasonable to say that because some women might end up with less good men, because some women are in roles which only pay SMP, that maternity provision should be as low as it is . The burden of low SMP falls on women, not men. This isn't fair. If a man chooses not to do shared parental leave, a woman cannot force him to. If a man indicated that e would support his partner after childbirth and then becomes more financially controlling than she expected, it is her pay that is cut to £ per week SMP - not is, and there is nothing she can do about it (except return to work). This can literally never happen to a man.

For many women, returning to work after 4 months (for example) would be very hard. I was still breast feeding round the clock at that stage with both my kids. I was beside myself with exhaustion. They were both had allergies which meant formal would have been an extremely challenging option. And also, I was very very upset returning to work after 12 months (especially with my first, when I went back full time), I physically dont think I could have done it after 4 months, and I dont think women should be expected to.

The paltry amount paid for SMP is sexist, it puts women in the control of men, and places all the financial risk on the woman.

I have had to take maternity leave because financially he earns more than me and it "makes sense" (so hasn't had to look after 2 under 3 for the last year, while he's at work)

Or you could look at that as it being a lovely opportunity to spend a year with your 2 little ones, rather than not having that opportunity afforded to you

• That raising my children is literally worth no money in return (I don't get anything for the last 12 weeks of my 1 year of mat leave - yes I'm "lucky" to get something for the first 9 months)

Not sure how you work that out. By staying at home your family budget has saved a heck of a lot in childcare costs. So your family are at least that much better off (don't know what you've saved in commute or other work related expenses).
Plus, you do not have to take twelve months. That really is your choice. Loads of people don't take twelve months. If you want (and can afford) to stay at home for a further 3 months, that really is your choice. I'm not sure why you think your employers (or maybe the tax payers??) should pay for you to choose not to go to work.

Don't get me wrong, I am horrified at the sexism that still exists in far too many workplaces, but this isn't a great argument to help your case.

@Katekarate

And I'm sure you’re more than capable of earning the same as your DH, if youre in a similar line of work, similar qualifications etc

Yes because the gender pay gap doesn't exist

This is a really defeatist attitude. Looks like I have more faith in the OP than you do! The gender pay gap mostly exists due to time out around having kids (and as others have said, a year each time is not necessary) and different preferences for types of work. Plenty of research on that. No reason career has to be a priority for everyone, but if it is, women can choose it, just like men can.

@lljkk

In last few days, My tame male housemates... ... fixed a tyre puncture on my bike (just did it), I didn't ask ... shared my interests ... Laughed at my jokes ... cooked tea, did all the shopping & most the laundry & dishwasher loading ... loaned me £2 to buy strawberries ... coo'd over the cat with me ... sorted the teenager's new data phone package ... got up at 5:50am on a Sunday to do their paper rounds ... supported teen DC to do sports events

I'm probably the useless housemate, tbh. Maybe my tame household males should start slagging off my entire sex based on my inadequate contributions.

I don't understand. You live with male housemates who help you out and you're comparing that to a co-parenting relationship?

This is a really defeatist attitude. Looks like I have more faith in the OP than you do! The gender pay gap mostly exists due to time out around having kids (and as others have said, a year each time is not necessary) and different preferences for types of work. Plenty of research on that. No reason career has to be a priority for everyone, but if it is, women can choose it, just like men can.

I'm sorry, but you are wrong. I've done lots of work in this area. There are many structural societal reasons that the pay gap persists. I say this as a single mother with a high earning career who always earned more than my ex-husband. But I was lucky and statistically unusual. It is NOT the norm and to pretend women want to be in the awful situations that the structural prejudice puts them in is extremely naive.

*And yes, if I'm absolutely honest, the older I get the more I think men are by far the weaker sex - less adaptable, less resourceful, less articulate, less perceptive, less collaborative, less loving, lower pain thresholds, more selfish. And absolutely crippled by their own emotional illiteracy, which turns any complex emotions they can't handle into the blunt instrument that is anger.

Mothers' commune anyone???*

Hear, hear.
Where do I sign up?

@SunflowerGiraffe I’m very open to hearing more about this. What do you mean by structural prejudice?

I should add, if the OP thinks she’s been discriminated against at work and paid less than her DH despite similar backgrounds, then that feels like an issue and conversation worth discussing on its own. It shouldn’t be conflated with the point about parental leave.