What do men even do?

[dohdohdoh]

Since having kids I look at men and think what do you even do?!

What hurdles do they have in their life?

I have a great partner and we try to make things 50:50 but I hate that:

• Despite being in similar lines of work he earns more than me
• I have had to take maternity leave because financially he earns more than me and it "makes sense" (so hasn't had to look after 2 under 3 for the last year, while he's at work)
• That raising my children is literally worth no money in return (I don't get anything for the last 12 weeks of my 1 year of mat leave - yes I'm "lucky" to get something for the first 9 months)

And basically all the other minor and major injustices of being a woman!

I just can't help but think if once women give birth and society deemed men should then look after a baby for the next 12 months, they'd instantly demand full pay for the whole period and everyone would think, yes that's reasonable. But as women we should just be grateful for any morsels we can get.

Sorry this is just a rant I guess but I can't believe its the 21st century and we are still screwed over. And now when I look at men I just think what do you even do? How much do you pull your weight at home? Who have you trampled on to get to where you are professionally? I judge them, I judge them harshly.

@PrincessNymeria

I find being a single parent easier, as when I was in a relationship, I felt like I was caring for two children. My ex was fairly independent before we met, but as soon as ds was born, it was like he wanted me to start mothering him too, and not just the baby, "you wash all his clothes!", well yes, he can't walk yet...

I don't think it's 'men' that are the issue but the choices women make. The fun partner to go out and eat drink and get merry with may not be the one who wants to be a caring dad and husband.

Sometimes I think women now look for a man to have fun with (and possibly children) a different man to raise the children and be dad and a final one to be friends with and share what's left of life. Its a problem to try and find all three in the one person.

When we married it was him washing my clothes. We didn't have a washing machine so he'd have Saturday morning at the laundrette doing the washing and getting the groceries while the washing was on, I had a lie in or did some housework. Daily chores never seemed to be the issue that many seem to have.

If you don't want to risk pausing your career, don't have kids.

Sometimes I think women now look for a man to have fun with (and possibly children) a different man to raise the children and be dad and a final one to be friends with and share what's left of life. Its a problem to try and find all three in the one person.

This makes me really angry for several reasons a) because it assumes you can always tell the difference. That the kind of man "to have fun with" is easy to spot and avoid. And the kind of man who stays in to wash your socks advertises this. Men who don't want to support you domestically don't have tattoos which show this. Most of them talk a very good game about it before they have children. Some men manifest a bit of all three.

b) because it makes it women's fault (for not identifying the "provider" men) and thus women's responsibility: you should have seen him coming/should have done a better job of identifying a dull but reliable type and therefore its right that you're stuck with the reduced income and limited opportunities.

It's a profoundly sexist and backwards worldview.

@quizqueen I'd add that it's not the employer paying a person to be off for maternity/parental leave, it's working people's taxes all pooled together to provide financial support for said working people when life (and biological reality) changes their abillity to participate in a 35+ hour week.

By your logic, we shouldn't have pensions either and each individual should either save appropriately or starve.

@TheReluctantPhoenix

This is a bit about wanting to ‘have it all’.

Life expectancy of 80+, never hungry, never cold, regular holidays (at least until recently) etc etc, I am guessing that this is your life, OP.

Do men have it better? Maybe. But, from 95% of the world’s perspective, comparing women and men in the UK is like Branson resenting Bezos for his multi billionaire lifestyle.

The major discriminant of life opportunities is wealth. It far outranks sex, race etc. But, strangely, amongst the demographic on this site, it is not discussed much. I wonder why…

however, across all those communities and all those different cultures, the relative compasrrisons between mens lives and womens lives remains pretty much the same - women doing the hugest majority of the unpaid gruntwork

I don't think it's 'men' that are the issue but the choices women make. The fun partner to go out and eat drink and get merry with may not be the one who wants to be a caring dad and husband.
It is wrong-headed and offensive to blame women for making a bad choice.
So many times I read on here about men who were perfect partners until they had kids, when they turned into patriarchs/mummy's boys/something else that means they will not step up and do their share of raising their children. Without a crystal ball, what are women meant to do?

Sometimes I think women now look for a man to have fun with (and possibly children) a different man to raise the children and be dad and a final one to be friends with and share what's left of life. Its a problem to try and find all three in the one person.
And yet women can be all of these things. I don't have kids, but many of my female friends do and they are all capable of being fun, of caring for their children and of being friends (with me and with their male partners). Why is it considered so remarkable for men to be the same?

If you don't want to risk pausing your career, don't have kids.
Do we say that to men? No. Why not? Well, we could all write an essay on that, couldn't we, but it comes down to sexism.

@Doona

and also to add its an absolute waste of 50% of the possible talent out there that could be building and shaping society Women's brains arent just for babymaking and sweeping.

SAHPs are building and shaping society, and you know perfectly well that it's more than just babymaking and sweeping. Yes, we need mothers to be scientists and leaders too, but we can value that without insulting full time carers, who are awesome.

well yes, as a fulltime carer I dont mean to belittle the very important job of raising the next generation. It was more the compulsory housewife model that was rated by a PP

Childraising, absolutely

washing the masters pants, less so

As for the 'weaker sex.' I have a theory about why a horrible number of men fully develop and show their inner abusive arsehole during pregnancy. It's awe inspiring. It's beyond anything we could do. And I think for misogynists it's just too intimidating for them to deal with any other way. I know my partner is stronger. I know my mum was. I'm pleased for my mum that my dad seems to realise the same. I think among the many dark motivations that seeded the patriarchy was a strong envy of what women can be when they're not too busy trying not be crushed under our heels.
I think this is a very interesting theory, and wonder if it formed the basis of the end of the goddess worship, to be replaced by weaponry swinging male power-gods

NettleTea, I also often wonder about how and why goddess worship changed to worshipping male gods.
Something to do with the successive 'weapon-making' ages –Bronze, Iron etc – meaning society became more martial?

@Comedycook

If there is reincarnation I'd like to come back as a man. Women get a shit deal

@Comedycook for you maybe. I love being a woman and wouldn’t change sex if you paid me.

YABU

Biology. You can’t fight biology. And in terms of child rearing men and women will never be truly equal. And that’s ok.

I don’t feel hard done by for being pregnant, giving birth and doing the majority of childcare. I feel very lucky.

It’s not compulsory to have children.

Biology. You can’t fight biology. And in terms of child rearing men and women will never be truly equal. And that’s ok.
Why?

It’s not compulsory to have children. Does that mean women should be financially and socially punished if they choose to? And should men be? If not, why not?

@bendmeoverbackwards

I like being a woman too but only because I am one and am happy being me. But from an objective point of view, women get a worse deal than men overall

@bendmeoverbackwards

YABU

Biology. You can’t fight biology. And in terms of child rearing men and women will never be truly equal. And that’s ok.

I don’t feel hard done by for being pregnant, giving birth and doing the majority of childcare. I feel very lucky.

It’s not compulsory to have children.

You are correct. You can't fight biology. And that is exactly why people will have children. It is how nature works. It is how animals work. We reproduce. You could argue that it is our most important purpose - to ensure the survival of the species.

And also, women bear the children. Of course that is a task that only women can do.

I am not sure you are making the point you think you are.

The whole point of feminism is to recognise that women have this biological function (for want of a better word), but that that is not a reason for women to be disadvantaged. There are ways of organising society so that the hit taken (income, prospects, independence) is shared equally between parents. Yes - only women can do the birthing, but either, or both parents, can do the rearing.

I despair.

This is not about personal choices, it is about society's expectations and norms.

Many men want children too, by the way, it is in no way only a woman's choice.

This is so backwards.

I'm in my 60s - when I went to school DPs had nothing to do with it and I got myself there and back. No sports to ferry to. Meals were simple as I had school dinners (yuck). And we didn't expect meals to be spicy , tasty etc they were more to fill you up. Washing done once a week.
Life is sooooo busy nowadays with huge expectations of parents - if life was simpler both parents could reign back. Not going to happen though.

@Weebleweeble

I'm in my 60s - when I went to school DPs had nothing to do with it and I got myself there and back. No sports to ferry to. Meals were simple as I had school dinners (yuck). And we didn't expect meals to be spicy , tasty etc they were more to fill you up. Washing done once a week. Life is sooooo busy nowadays with huge expectations of parents - if life was simpler both parents could reign back. Not going to happen though.

Yes it's true. Parenting is ridiculously intensive. Mine are now 10/13 and quite honestly I feel the same as when they were pre schoolers in terms of workload and pressure on me

The thing is, whatever choices women make in their personal lives, it doesn't change the fact that structural inequality exists everywhere. One high-earning mother married to a SAHD doesn't mean parenting is generally promoted by society as an equal job for fathers as well as mothers, and one woman married to a feckless lazy twat doesn't mean it was all her choice/fault – feckless lazy twats become so because society enables it.

The insidious, sexist messaging is everywhere –women might now have the vote and the right to their own finances but it's the everyday expectations and prejudices we still haven't stamped out. How many times do you see on here 'my husband's workplace just doesn't look favourably on asking for flexible working' or 'he's useless with the kids so I can't leave them alone with him'. Why is this happening? Because workplaces continue to expect mothers to pick up the slack, the media/advertising/film and TV we see still positions dads who take their kids to the park once for half an hour as some kind of saint, while mothers are just expected to do everything by default.

I'm not a mother and I can see it. I read enough on here in the Relationships board, and from speaking to friends who are mothers, I can see how the inequality becomes even starker once kids come along. Men don't even realise they're absorbing these messages half the time, they just breeze through life without the same weight of expectations as there are on women.

For all the bad men do, I do actually have to thank my dad for instilling such wisdom in me as a child as 'it's not a light at the end of the tunnel, it's an oncoming train' and 'you're never far from a wanker' and 'people are out to screw you over', because it's his relentless pessimism that's made me as selfish and single-minded as I am. I feel very lucky that I pursued autonomy and financial independence first and foremost, and it didn't take me having a disastrous marriage or worse, kids with a useless fuckwit to make me realise I needed to always put myself first. I don't intend to ever marry or have kids – I'm keeping my money and my assets to myself, thanks – and reading MN only confirms to me this is the right choice. I also count myself lucky I'm bisexual so I can choose never to have a relationship with a man again.

I agree with a PP that it's heartening the penny is dropping for more and more women – it's just a shame they have to suffer first-hand the ineptitude of men before they realise it. The problem is society, it's messaging and its expectations, there needs to be a vast overhaul of the public perception of what it means to be a man or a woman (and as for going back to days where men were breadwinners and women nurturers – fuck off, and keep fucking off).

@ScaredNotAnxious

If you're doing the same job for the same employer with the same qualifications and experience and you're earning less then that's illegal - if not, you're not earning less because you're a woman, you're earning less because you're less qualified or less experienced or doing a less valuable job. You chose to have children, you chose to take maternity leave and, by your own admission, the decision for you to take leave is because you earn less, not because you have a vagina. So, again, nothing actually to do with being a woman. You could have split parental leave, you could have adopted or used a surrogate so you had no need for you to take leave at all. This is a choice you made. Furthermore, you didn't need to stay off work for a full year - another choice you made. You're not being screwed over for being a woman, you've just made choices and are somehow pissed off and determined to pretend to be a victim. It undermines actual sexism that happens when you prattle on about how "men don't do anything" because you're not being paid for three months of the maternity leave you chose to take from the job you chose to do after having the baby you chose to have. Stop blaming men for your life choices.

100%

You and your DP have a choice - it makes sense for one of you to be with the kids more, then why not him? It's a good time to do it now before your earnings fall too far behind.

I earn way less than DW, way less s I went part-time and did more kids stuff while she climbed the greasy pole. But honestly, I don't think I even regret it, there's more to life than work. Now our kids are older I'm back full-time and can choose to start being really ambitious again, or I can choose to stay at amore moderate grade and still be here more for the kids. Or my DW can. So we've gone for me FT, and out of the hse, DW is WFH FT and does more kid stuff now.
It's not written in stone. `change your circs, get your DP to go PT or pull his weight more with the kids.

TBH, I feel hugely privileged to have been the one to have borne our kids. No amount of inequality in the workplace will ever take that from me.

I don't think anyone, male or female, should be paid for having/raising kids, the planet is already hugely over populated as it is. We should be paying people not to have kids. It seems though that for a father to take the equivalent of maternity they have to take shared parental leave and I think that's wrong. If maternity is available for women it should be the same for men, not labelled as 'shared'.

And basically all the other minor and major injustices of being a woman!

As a child free by choice woman, I'd just like to point out that this is the case for a mother, rather than all women.

It's also why I'm happy without DC. I appreciate that there are things I'm missing out on, even so, this works for me.

You don't have to be a man to get a good job with excellent pay. It's the responsibilities of having children, of being the default parent, that has this impact.

I spotted this before having children, who wouldn't ?

Ok nc8765 and scarednotanxious...

What is an acceptable thing to find sexist?

Because I think the way society is set up so that the roles more often taken up by women (caring roles, mainly) are less valued than equivalently skilled predominantly male roles - is a sexism issue. Both in that women seem to be self-limiting in terms of the jobs they want (I am not talking about individual people, but in broad strokes. Individual choices make very little impact here) and in the value we place on those roles.

You can make more money as a plumber than as a nurse. Is plumbing really more highly skilled or necessary?

This leads to having children, where women are already likely to be making less because of the above issue, but also because employers really DO make assumptions about women of child-bearing age and are less likely to give them extra responsibilities because they might go off on maternity leave. This means more women take time off than men, which confirms the suspicion that women having babies = years off work and then a part time return, if they return at all. (It doesn't have to be like that)

Can you see how this is a self-perpetuating problem? It is deeply ingrained sexism. So deeply that many can't even see it and see a thin veneer of 'personal choice' instead.

What, if not that, are we allowed to call sexism?

@IntermittentParps

NettleTea, I also often wonder about how and why goddess worship changed to worshipping male gods. Something to do with the successive 'weapon-making' ages –Bronze, Iron etc – meaning society became more martial?

@IntermittentParps

the books 'when god was a woman' and 'The Chalice and the Blade' come up with some interesting suggestions, and a few hints that show the 'village of mothers' was a very successful model for millenia before some hotheaded males wanted in on the act