What do men even do?

[dohdohdoh]

Since having kids I look at men and think what do you even do?!

What hurdles do they have in their life?

I have a great partner and we try to make things 50:50 but I hate that:

• Despite being in similar lines of work he earns more than me
• I have had to take maternity leave because financially he earns more than me and it "makes sense" (so hasn't had to look after 2 under 3 for the last year, while he's at work)
• That raising my children is literally worth no money in return (I don't get anything for the last 12 weeks of my 1 year of mat leave - yes I'm "lucky" to get something for the first 9 months)

And basically all the other minor and major injustices of being a woman!

I just can't help but think if once women give birth and society deemed men should then look after a baby for the next 12 months, they'd instantly demand full pay for the whole period and everyone would think, yes that's reasonable. But as women we should just be grateful for any morsels we can get.

Sorry this is just a rant I guess but I can't believe its the 21st century and we are still screwed over. And now when I look at men I just think what do you even do? How much do you pull your weight at home? Who have you trampled on to get to where you are professionally? I judge them, I judge them harshly.

Sorry quot not working - that was to @GetDownWithTheCygent

@BastardMonkfish

Fucking comments on this thread. The patriarchy has women falling over themselves to point fingers at each other, letting men away with everything. It's your fault for wanting children, your fault you wanted maternity leave, your fault your husband doesn't pull his weight with the children, I wouldn't have had children with a man like that, your fault you had to get equal rights and a career and look where it's left you.

Has anyone blamed the mothers yet? It's not the patriarchy's fault men grow up so self entitled they think it's beneath them to empty the dishwasher even though their wife also has a full time job and does all the childcare, shopping and cooking. It's his mother's fault for not teaching him to do it

However men behave, in whatever scenario you choose, there will be a way to make it a woman's fault. We - men and women - have been so socialised into this, it is so ingrained into every fibre of our being that we don't even realise we're doing it.

Alas yes, someone has blamed their MIL for pandering to her own DH so now she has to as well apparently. Couldn't just be he's a dick who is taking advantage.

The answer? Don't have kids.
You'd think. But inequality will find you. Your parents will get old and get ill and die and everyone will take a big step back leaving you to deal with all the caring and expense and drudgery. And it'll leave you broke and broken and with a life that's irretrievably fucked.

@Susannahmoody

Women need to start putting their own needs first

^

This, basically.

Problem is, we only seen to realise after the wedding/kids/joint assets.

We need strong, assertive women which starts from early infancy. I tell DD to climb the tree, you can do it, it's easy. I'll also be telling her to tell all these creepy males to fuck off when necessary. I spent my adolescence far too timid and meek and mild for any of that. Wouldn't want to not be polite

The othe problem is, for a lot of women, me included, having children was a "need". Not saying all women must have kids but for many it's a basic drive. Certainly there's a very good argument to be made that, whether we long for it or not or are fulfilled by it or not, it's not in our best interests.

This is a bit about wanting to ‘have it all’.

Life expectancy of 80+, never hungry, never cold, regular holidays (at least until recently) etc etc, I am guessing that this is your life, OP.

Do men have it better? Maybe. But, from 95% of the world’s perspective, comparing women and men in the UK is like Branson resenting Bezos for his multi billionaire lifestyle.

The major discriminant of life opportunities is wealth. It far outranks sex, race etc. But, strangely, amongst the demographic on this site, it is not discussed much. I wonder why…

Western populations are falling as families have fewer children.

@TheReluctantPhoenix

Women are always told to sit down and shut up until ALL the other problems are solved before we are allowed to discuss the ones that affect us specifically as women. It's how socialists (of which I am one btw) coopted women's labour in the unions without doing anything to improve women's labour conditions for decades. It's what always happens whenever women's issues are raised - " but what about..."

It is perfectly legitimate to say that yes, economic inequity is a huge and pressing problem, but also note that all else being equal, in general a woman is worse off than the comparative man in each socioeconomic bracket. That is an issue as well, and doesn't deserve to be stuffed down the back of the sofa to be dealt with after the glorious revolution.

My kids are grown up now.

I had a shit baby daddy who basically did very little to raise them, was abusive to me, and I left him 11 years ago. This meant I brought them up on my own, mostly. He did pay bare min child support.

Anyway, it was super tough doing that. I worked as much as I could…minimum 4 days a week, mostly full time. I’d be up at the crack of dawn every day, late to bed, knackered, carried to full emotional load of all aspects of child rearing.

And here we are, and I wouldn’t trade my position with his for a million pounds. My relationship with my kids/young adults is just so satisfying. We are close (not unhealthy clingy close), we respect one another, we value one another, I feel a lot of fulfilment from it all. By god it wasn’t easy, but his relationship is shallow and there’s nothing he can do to repair it really. It’s too late. Despite his attempts. They ‘have a relationship’ with him, love him, but it’s one of those loyalty relationships, not really a true deep bond.

IMO it’s a long game, I’ve had the privilege of being able to get that life long satisfying bond, it took a lot of work and sacrifice, but I’ve got it and he really hasn’t. So it depends on your definition of inequality. I happen to have actually done ok financially in the last few years too…although I was pretty poverty stricken in the early years, so although he is financially better off than me overall, even that has changed over time. I’d just much rather my life than his.

This is so interesting yet depressing to read

I have no kids but am only early 20s, what scares me is the story of my mother who was financially independent, decent career, own house. Gets pregnant in her late 30s (which she very much wanted), my dad earned double her wage so she felt she had to give up work to look after me (and later my brother) and hasn’t had independence sustaining work since.

Whilst my dad was completely useless other than in income and DIY, she did maintain an income from rental properties but it’s not the same.

And I live in fear of the same happening to me

And my dad is in a career that if he was female or not white he would’ve had to work twice as hard for less success

And he knows this

This isn’t my experience at all.

I took 12 months off after maternity (good Mat Pay on the NHS) and then took three months off unpaid which we had previously saved for.

My husband then bore the brunt of our finances as I wanted to go back part time (25 hours) thus reducing my income.

As a result of dropping my hours I do believe that over the next few years it did restrict my opportunities to climb the ladder, where’s my husband climber his ladder very well, but I never resented him for it.

My youngest is now almost four and we are now relocating to a different city so I can do my dream job. My husband has never complained once about it, and although it makes his life harder, he’s 100% behind me because he knows how much this job means to me.

He does absolutely more than his fair share with the children and if one of them is sick and can’t go to school/childcare then we take it in turns of who takes a day off work.

I understand that some families end up with a different and unfair dynamic once children arrive, but it doesn’t happen to everyone.

I agree though that generally the process of having children does burden (for want of a better word) the woman more which is unfair in the 21st century but as a previous poster said, the only way to avoid it is to not have children I guess which is a ludicrous solution.

Women should be able to have children with the end result causing life changes that affect the woman and man equally, and it isn’t fair that it’s not the case.

I don’t know what the answer is, but if you are starting to feel resentful of your partner (understandably so) then maybe you need to find a way together to try and get your lives back on a more equal footing.

Sympathies to you OP because it does sound like you’re having a rough time with the unfairness of it all - and I really hope you can find a way forward

@Gakatsbsk

This is so interesting yet depressing to read

I have no kids but am only early 20s, what scares me is the story of my mother who was financially independent, decent career, own house. Gets pregnant in her late 30s (which she very much wanted), my dad earned double her wage so she felt she had to give up work to look after me (and later my brother) and hasn’t had independence sustaining work since.

Whilst my dad was completely useless other than in income and DIY, she did maintain an income from rental properties but it’s not the same.

And I live in fear of the same happening to me

And the lesson here is never ever give up work, and don't share money (ideally don't share a home either). However hard it is to not look after your beloved child or send them off the childcare. However much you may feel "I won't get the time back" or whatever. However much people raise their eyebrows or judge you.

Hold onto your job, your money and your autonomy for dear life. Don't let anyone convince you your children will suffer if you don't give up work. Its a patriarchy confidence trick. Don't fall for it.

Here endeth the lesson.

The answer? Don't have kids. Live carefree, like a bloke.

yeah, it really doesn't like that because the sexism is systemic.

I had my DCs quite late, and actually up to about a year before had no intention of having children but i was still turned down for jobs by companies - quite openly - because of age and sex. Didn't get promotions "because you'll be running off to have babies soon"

And then when i did? and because i live in an enlightened country DH took the 2nd half of parental leave (over a year) i was turned down for promotion because "if your kid is sick..." despite evidence to the contrary that even after he was on parental leave it was DH who did the sick kid routine (which generally involved our nanny) etc etc

So no, you can't opt out of the sexism just like that.

@groundcontroltomontydon

The answer? Don't have kids. You'd think. But inequality will find you. Your parents will get old and get ill and die and everyone will take a big step back leaving you to deal with all the caring and expense and drudgery. And it'll leave you broke and broken and with a life that's irretrievably fucked.

Yep! baffled at the idea that being a women Without children makes me a pseudo man and all sexism magically disappears. Of course it doesn’t. Am genuinely shocked that ppl think not having a child solves all women’s problems.

@sociallydistained

I feel you, OP. I’ve been an independent woman who never wanted to marry or have kids and be in control of all my own finances and never share. Well I got knocked up didnt I… (again contraception is all on the woman and I came off of the pill as it was ruining me!…I slipped up). I am now pregnant and want to become a mother despite it not being in my plan. When I looked at maternity I weeped! I have my own home but I cannot afford it on stat maternity pay. I have to move in with my partner (which is fine I want him to be very involved and share the nights!) but I now have to take that cut from work, sell my home because we can’t live here, and rely on him for income then go back part time cause With childcare costs it’s not financially viable for me to work full time.

I’m honestly completely depressed and worried sick about my financial independence.

@sociallydistance

Do not sell your home!!!! This is one of the biggest mistakes some women do--they leave their homes and move in with partners (who own their own homes) and end up homeless with children when things don't work out.

Have you seen what you can get on UC whilst on mat leave/when baby is born?

Or can you rent it out?

I agree in some ways. There's no doubt my career suffered massively from having dc. But it was my choice to go part time. There is no doubt that my day-to-day life continues to be considerably easier than dh's, because he got promoted repeatedly and works very hard in a stressful job (same sector as me) and I'm stil part time now my dc are teens, due to lack of suitable ft jobs.

I found being at home with the dc way way easier than being at work, and so would dh have done. Being in charge of most of the housework etc is dull, but it's not hard ir stressful. I wouldn't swap with dh for anything tbh. And he's always been great with the dc and hands-on at home when he's notvat work.

The question really is why do women settle for less? Often because their wish for children is stronger so they relegate themselves. I wouldn't have had a child in those circumstances.

I think you're right, they want a child so will either take whatever option is given to them or don't think about the consequences and are then shocked.

My partner wants kids, I would have them but only under the following conditions. I earn more than him and told him already that because his job effectively will only pay for childcare, then he won't be working anymore if we have kids and will be a sahd because it's not cost effective and what's the point in stressing us both out by both working? Cleaning and childcare will be his job from then on. And I'm sticking to that, it's the only way I'll do it. I'm not leaving my job or going part time that's for sure.

My partner wants kids, I would have them but only under the following conditions. I earn more than him and told him already that because his job effectively will only pay for childcare, then he won't be working anymore if we have kids and will be a sahd because it's not cost effective and what's the point in stressing us both out by both working? Cleaning and childcare will be his job from then on. grin And I'm sticking to that, it's the only way I'll do it. I'm not leaving my job or going part time that's for sure.

Would it be ok for a man to have this attitude towards his female partner who wanted children?

I’m pretty sure she’d be told to leave, and run away very fast, from a man who made such dictations.

I’m honestly shocked that you think it’s ok to say all of that to your partner, demanding he give up work and do all the housework and childcare, and include a little smiley face at the end of it.

Gob smacked really.

My partner wants kids, I would have them but only under the following conditions...

What if he doesn't keep his side of the bargain, though? Its always good to have an alternative to negotiated agreement, like, a walk away option, and mothers often don't.

Since having kids I look at men and think what do you even do?!

What hurdles do they have in their life?

Do you think the same about childless/childfree women? Is it only mother’s who have hurdles in their life?

Would it be ok for a man to have this attitude towards his female partner who wanted children?

Most men have this attitude towards their female partners who want children. That's the basic model. Who gets to decide whether its "OK"? Men have. For centuries. Now some women get to call the shots about the way their household is organised and people are pearl-clutching.

You are "shocked" that this poster is demanding her husband give up work to do the housework and childcare. What do you think men have been doing for time immemorial?

Of course this poster's partner may well feel that this isn't what he signed up for and jump ship -- I probably would if I'm honest. But the point is if he buggers off to find a more accommodating woman who won't order him barefoot back to the kitchen, he won't be judged by society as having failed as a man. But a woman who fails to tolerate being put in a box by a man will be excoriated by society. Too old, too ugly, too ambitious. Whatever.

This is what patriarchy does.

I think the question that needs to be asked is why, by the time women reach the point in their lives that they want children, are they earning less than the men around them?

I agree that inequality in the workplace kicks in big time AFTER children are born, but what about before?

@KingdomScrolls

Speak for yourself I earn more than my husband, and he pulls his weight, I wouldn't have married him otherwise. I did earn a bit less during maternity leave but DH made up the shortfall in family finances. He was willing to do shared parental leave, I decided I wanted to be off. I changed my working hours to FT over four days to suit childcare and so did he, we equally split childcare pick up and drop off, and share the load in terms of rearranging work when DS can't go to nursery. The question really is why do women settle for less? Often because their wish for children is stronger so they relegate themselves. I wouldn't have had a child in those circumstances.

you do sound as if you are really lucky with your DH, however I would suggest that its precisely because you ARE the highest earner and hence hold some clout to say how it will be.

Sadly many many women do not outearn their partners, and their requests to sort an arrangement, which sounds wonderful, that you have suggested, often gets swept aside or refused

But why don't they out earn their partners @NettleTea ? Pre childbirth I'm talking.