What do men even do?

[dohdohdoh]

Since having kids I look at men and think what do you even do?!

What hurdles do they have in their life?

I have a great partner and we try to make things 50:50 but I hate that:

• Despite being in similar lines of work he earns more than me
• I have had to take maternity leave because financially he earns more than me and it "makes sense" (so hasn't had to look after 2 under 3 for the last year, while he's at work)
• That raising my children is literally worth no money in return (I don't get anything for the last 12 weeks of my 1 year of mat leave - yes I'm "lucky" to get something for the first 9 months)

And basically all the other minor and major injustices of being a woman!

I just can't help but think if once women give birth and society deemed men should then look after a baby for the next 12 months, they'd instantly demand full pay for the whole period and everyone would think, yes that's reasonable. But as women we should just be grateful for any morsels we can get.

Sorry this is just a rant I guess but I can't believe its the 21st century and we are still screwed over. And now when I look at men I just think what do you even do? How much do you pull your weight at home? Who have you trampled on to get to where you are professionally? I judge them, I judge them harshly.

''This might sound controversial but things were better before, men had their role as the bread winner and women had their role as the nurturing type. Society is so mixed up now days''

That's why you should choose a good husband with prospects, who will respect and care for you. So many people get divorced these days, having children with 2 or 3 different men, it's insane, nothing is sacred anymore.''

WTAF ARE YOU TWO ON, yeah lets rely on men to look after us, like the good little women we are

This might sound controversial but things were better before, men had their role as the bread winner and women had their role as the nurturing type. Society is so mixed up now days

You can flush that sort of shite down the khazi, thank you very much.

I think we should firstly launch a political campaign so that all job offers and employment contracts must state the maternity, paternity and shared parental packages they offer. Without the prospective employee having to ask. And these packages must be part of the contract - they cannot be a nice discretionary 'policy' that an employer can later change. It's part of your pay deal.

Then we should campaign for both young men and women to prioritise employers who offer decent maternity/paternity packages, even if they have no intention of ever having children. Because this is the way to make society fairer (and young people tend to want to do that). That would motivate employers to offer better deals to attract the best talent.

We also need education resources for women to teach them about the financial consequences of being a woman who has a child. There should be online calculators to show the consequences of taking time off work without pay, pension, etc. Resources on how to maximise their employer's pension contributions during maternity leave, etc. And the cost of deciding to become a SAHM in the long term vs the short term benefits. The realities of what they will get in a divorce.

We need to educate women on the minimum standards to expect of a partner in terms of house work before children and how that correlates to the partner's behaviour after children. That men don't change except for the worse when children come along. That it is not the mum's job to take on this burden.

Finally we should be founding women-only unions in the public sector, to ensure that women-dominated fields have better pay and conditions so that it is no longer just expected that the jobs women tend to 'choose' pay less. At the same time, we should be encouraging women to choose careers in non-traditional sectors such as tech where they will get paid well, have interesting work and have flexible hours.

And of course there's a lot else we could do e.g. reducing the cost of childcare, ensuring that the ex-partners of 'single mothers' pay their fair share, etc So much we could do in fact. We need the political will.

Fucking comments on this thread. The patriarchy has women falling over themselves to point fingers at each other, letting men away with everything. It's your fault for wanting children, your fault you wanted maternity leave, your fault your husband doesn't pull his weight with the children, I wouldn't have had children with a man like that, your fault you had to get equal rights and a career and look where it's left you.

Has anyone blamed the mothers yet? It's not the patriarchy's fault men grow up so self entitled they think it's beneath them to empty the dishwasher even though their wife also has a full time job and does all the childcare, shopping and cooking. It's his mother's fault for not teaching him to do it

However men behave, in whatever scenario you choose, there will be a way to make it a woman's fault. We - men and women - have been so socialised into this, it is so ingrained into every fibre of our being that we don't even realise we're doing it.

I am relieved that some more sensible people have arrived. I thought I was in a time warp.

@joystir59

And why in earth do women want to share households with men? Or when they do cohabit why does the man get to be head of the household? Men are generally fairly shit at running families.

Lots of us don't, and won't ever again! I love being completely independent and having my own home and will never give that up. Funny how once women achieve financial independence, a vanishingly small minority of them ever choose to combine their finances with a man again.

We're utterly fucked over, time and time again.

Here's my tuppence worth :

Terrible medical care for women, especially anything to do with the reproductive system. Pre natal, and even more so, post natal care is generally of a very poor standard. Women account for 50% of the population. That's half. HALF of the population get terrible healthcare.

Nurseries are extortionate. They need to be government subsidised, FROM BIRTH, for all children. It needs to be regulated, government run, inclusive and educational. This would enable children from poor socio-economic backgrounds to a get head start, and enable women to go back to work, gaining independence.

Jobs that women traditionally get into need to be better paid and better trained. I'd personally waiver the fees on nursing, teaching, ECE courses to encourage more women into careers. This would be in return for 3/5/7 or whatever years of UK employment.

Financial literacy in schools. Not just for girls, but for boys too. They need to know about mortgages, what having a child entails, marriage. It's not just Disney fairy tales.

@DrinkFeckArseBrick

"There's also the physical exhaustion and physical toll that pregnancy takes, it's a big deal for a body to go through that and natural to need some rest period after."

This is true and whilst sadly some people with birth injuries or health issues do take a year or longer to fully recover, most people with a straightforward birth are back to feeling ok and being able to work within a few months. I had severe anaemia, a traumatic birth and an episiotomy that didnt heal and ended up with a retained placenta etc and after about 4 months I would have felt ok to go back into the office (appreciate this will vary by job as well). Its a small minority of women who genuinely need the whole year to recover

This is just so different per woman. I had severe anaemia, a bad tear, manual placenta removal and 6m later I was still struggling. 8 months before we could properly have sex after physio help- had been seeing physio since birth. I would never judge anyone saying they can’t go back to work yet. And the difference when a baby sleeps / doesn’t sleep is the difference between having just been hit by a car or not.

Women need to start putting their own needs first

^

This, basically.

Problem is, we only seen to realise after the wedding/kids/joint assets.

We need strong, assertive women which starts from early infancy. I tell DD to climb the tree, you can do it, it's easy. I'll also be telling her to tell all these creepy males to fuck off when necessary. I spent my adolescence far too timid and meek and mild for any of that. Wouldn't want to not be polite

Living with a female friend or family member would be so good - help with baby, proper sharing of jousekeeping.

@Susannahmoody

We're utterly fucked over, time and time again.

Here's my tuppence worth :

Terrible medical care for women, especially anything to do with the reproductive system. Pre natal, and even more so, post natal care is generally of a very poor standard. Women account for 50% of the population. That's half. HALF of the population get terrible healthcare.

Nurseries are extortionate. They need to be government subsidised, FROM BIRTH, for all children. It needs to be regulated, government run, inclusive and educational. This would enable children from poor socio-economic backgrounds to a get head start, and enable women to go back to work, gaining independence.

Jobs that women traditionally get into need to be better paid and better trained. I'd personally waiver the fees on nursing, teaching, ECE courses to encourage more women into careers. This would be in return for 3/5/7 or whatever years of UK employment.

Financial literacy in schools. Not just for girls, but for boys too. They need to know about mortgages, what having a child entails, marriage. It's not just Disney fairy tales.

Yep!

E.g. this published today.

www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jul/06/a-cascade-of-catastrophic-failings-the-uks-baby-death-scandals

@Susannahmoody

Women need to start putting their own needs first

^

This, basically.

Problem is, we only seen to realise after the wedding/kids/joint assets.

We need strong, assertive women which starts from early infancy. I tell DD to climb the tree, you can do it, it's easy. I'll also be telling her to tell all these creepy males to fuck off when necessary. I spent my adolescence far too timid and meek and mild for any of that. Wouldn't want to not be polite

I agree totally. I had no idea how to respond to aggressive and predatory behaviour and was beaten out of being "rude" or "defiant" when a child. That did not work out well for me as a young adult.

I am teaching my daughter to be fierce. Not that she needs my help with that.

@cunningplan101

I think we should firstly launch a political campaign so that all job offers and employment contracts must state the maternity, paternity and shared parental packages they offer. Without the prospective employee having to ask. And these packages must be part of the contract - they cannot be a nice discretionary 'policy' that an employer can later change. It's part of your pay deal.

Then we should campaign for both young men and women to prioritise employers who offer decent maternity/paternity packages, even if they have no intention of ever having children. Because this is the way to make society fairer (and young people tend to want to do that). That would motivate employers to offer better deals to attract the best talent.

We also need education resources for women to teach them about the financial consequences of being a woman who has a child. There should be online calculators to show the consequences of taking time off work without pay, pension, etc. Resources on how to maximise their employer's pension contributions during maternity leave, etc. And the cost of deciding to become a SAHM in the long term vs the short term benefits. The realities of what they will get in a divorce.

We need to educate women on the minimum standards to expect of a partner in terms of house work before children and how that correlates to the partner's behaviour after children. That men don't change except for the worse when children come along. That it is not the mum's job to take on this burden.

Finally we should be founding women-only unions in the public sector, to ensure that women-dominated fields have better pay and conditions so that it is no longer just expected that the jobs women tend to 'choose' pay less. At the same time, we should be encouraging women to choose careers in non-traditional sectors such as tech where they will get paid well, have interesting work and have flexible hours.

And of course there's a lot else we could do e.g. reducing the cost of childcare, ensuring that the ex-partners of 'single mothers' pay their fair share, etc So much we could do in fact. We need the political will.

What an excellent post. I whole heartedly agree about publishing maternity policies, I was recently thinking the same thing. I was thinking it could be done at the same time as publishing gender pay stats. Secret maternity policies make it hard fir women to move roles, and how many women would ever ask the question in an interview?

What do even men do?

Live for their next shag, blowjob, night down the boozer with de lads, pizza, beer, bbq, sport.

I think that's it.

YANBU

Almost 10 years since I had my first child and I’m still not sure how to process this inequality either. Women bear the brunt of reproductive labour and society still refuses to even acknowledge this as labour at all. Men don’t go through the biological process so it’s an unknown, unseen value to them. I’m sure most fathers will have a misty-eyed moment at first sight of their baby but the woman’s work in that becomes invisible quickly afterwards, a forgotten contribution. Society just doesn’t acknowledge the biological injustice of it and we have now even reached the insanity of people denying that biological sex exists when every single human on the planet to date was born at the biological expense of a woman.

I’m not sure how to navigate it myself, OP! All I would say to you is to get your earnings up as soon as you can to reduce your financial dependence on your husband and to not feel guilty about paying for childcare as needed.

@sociallydistained

I knew what a shitty deal women got and yet here I am. I was discussing pensions with my older friend recently who raised two children and there wasn’t NI contributions or something when she was raising her two. She said she lost out on so much for raising her two. I remember thinking I’m glad I haven’t had kids as my pension is looking okay as I have been contributing a fair bit …. I was unknowingly pregnant whilst thinking this. I’ve since reduced my pension contribution considerably in order to save for mat leave.

I would honestly love a girl but I don’t see much change in her future either and that’s depresses and scares me.

@sociallydistained 🚨 I know it will be tough and I'm not trying to be simplistic, but your employer should maintain your pension contributions (both employee and employer) as if you hadn't dropped any pay, so please do reinstate them if you can. I couldn't afford to either, but couldn't afford not to! So got a 0% credit card that's just paid off three years later pension looks ok though!

Ok, not to minimise the inequalities faced by women at all…and I am probably going to be shot down in flames for my views…my husband would have loved to have shared my maternity leave. But I was breastfeeding and it just wasn’t a viable option. Plus I needed the time to recover - maybe not the whole time both times but I needed time nevertheless…There are some things that men totally miss out on and would love to experience too. It’s not all doom and gloom for women and I refuse to accept that it is.

I feel blessed to have carried my two children and to have been able to breastfeed them. I feel blessed that I was able to take time off and be paid for some of that…has it impacted my career? Yes, but minimally given that the career I am in still has far more women than men in the profession. I have progressed in my career probably at the same speed at which I would have had I been a man, or not had kids. I know not everyone can say that of course.

There is a small part of me that wants it all…a career and a family. Promotion and to be a high earner, but still be at home with the kids at a decent time. The other small part of me thinks, do we just put added pressure on ourselves to be everything to everyone? Of course we have as much right as any man to be at the top of our profession, to progress, to be recognised, to be paid fairly.

However!!! Sometimes I wonder if my life would be easier if I was a SAHM. Would I be happier? In my 20’s I would have said no way! Now as I approach 40, I think I would be. Sometimes I think I would be happier to be a wife and mum and be at home rather than stress about work, stress about pick ups and drop off’s, stress about holiday cover / childcare. If my husband was to be a SAHD and I went out to work I actually think I would be jealous! I know that part of the problem is that society hasn’t really caught up with the changes yet…we still carry a lot of the mental load as though we were actually all staying at home.

That doesn’t mean I don’t acknowledge other inequalities. Of course I do. But to say what do men do? Plenty! While I was off for 13 months with DD1, my lovely husband was working hard to make sure I had that time with her. Second time we couldn’t afford quite as long and I went back to work part time when DD2 was 9 months. We CHOSE for it to be me who went back part time because I was breastfeeding and it was the right thing for our daughters at the time. My husband would have loved to have gone part time (and did drop a day at one point for childcare and loved his day at home)

So much on this thread is "this is my experience therefore it can be extrapolated" rather than "let's look at the data, which makes the issue very clear, then take action to ensure the discrimination on a societal level stops".

It's depressing that the women who are mostly in the strongest position to push for change: those who are financially comfortable and have nice lives etc, seem to be mostly the ones denying that there is a problem. Because for them it's all ok.

Please read the research and realise that mot everybody has a charmed life.

But experience count. Ok, we can’t just consider our own experiences as that would be incredibly insular.

But to say anyone with a different view has had a charmed life isn’t fair.

I can acknowledge the huge inequalities faces by women whilst also recognising that positives too. Not because I’ve led a charmed life. The opposite in fact. I was brought up by a single mum - an amazing single mum actually, who carried the weight of the world on her shoulders while my useless father did nothing.

I work full time myself. But I still don’t agree with the OP’s initial question about what do men do! To me that is incredibly unfair

@seashells11

I'd have hated to be a man years ago when they had to go off fighting in wars, dying in trenches. Some countries still have call up too. It's not always the man who gets it easy.

I'd still hate to be a man, even with all the systematic privilege that remains in their favour. Not because of the risk of violence and death (created and inflicted in large part by other men); but be because male socialisation leads to such a combative, dissatisfied, lonely existence for so many men. And yes because the times are (painfully slowly) changing and the advantage of physical strength isn't what it once was in the modern age.

[quote LegoCaltrops]@Draineddraineddrained make sure you come back as an Asian elephant. Elephants generally a have a life expectancy of up to 70 years if not shot by poachers etc, but African elephants are apparently predicted to be extinct by 2040.[/quote]
😭😭😭

Never mind men, as a species there's just something bloody defective about is isn't there ☹️

[quote PutBabyInTheCorner]@16SunflowerGiraffe
What problems are they contending with though? I disagree that social conditioning, financial structures and cultural expectations are to blame, unless you let them be.[/quote]
Ah, good old fashioned Thatcherism in the wild. You don't see a lot of that nowadays, thanks for the novelty!

Does immunity to financial structures apply only to mothers or does this work across the board? Better go and tell economically depressed communities in former industrial hubs that their troubles are over, they just have to decide not to let the economic realities affect them. And the governments of developing countries will be pleased to be told that actually, there is no reason for their economies to be systematically disadvantaged by the post-colonial global economy, they just don't have to LET them be!

@AmberIsACertainty

So the government are just like any other gaslighting abuser then, making out that everything women do is their "choice" whilst simultaneously making all the other "choices " unbearable or non-viable.

It's not even that much of a choice to have DC or not, we're genetically programmed to breed, same as any other species. Telling a woman to choose not to have DC when she's genetically programmed to want them is like telling her she should be a snail because that would make life easier for herself. As if she has some sort of choice in being born a woman, with all that entails. As if everything in her life is her own fault simply because she exists.

👏👏👏👏👏

ODFOD. "Marry a good man" indeed. Get back to us in 20 years when your children have left home and your high earning husband starts telling you you should get a job stacking shelves at Tesco (all you're qualified for after decades of economic imactivity), allegedly "for your pension" but actually because he's shagging whipsmart, ambitious young Lucy from the office who is now looking for her own good husband with prospects, and he is hoping to demonstrate that you are not economically dependent on him in the divorce proceedings.