What do men even do?

[dohdohdoh]

Since having kids I look at men and think what do you even do?!

What hurdles do they have in their life?

I have a great partner and we try to make things 50:50 but I hate that:

• Despite being in similar lines of work he earns more than me
• I have had to take maternity leave because financially he earns more than me and it "makes sense" (so hasn't had to look after 2 under 3 for the last year, while he's at work)
• That raising my children is literally worth no money in return (I don't get anything for the last 12 weeks of my 1 year of mat leave - yes I'm "lucky" to get something for the first 9 months)

And basically all the other minor and major injustices of being a woman!

I just can't help but think if once women give birth and society deemed men should then look after a baby for the next 12 months, they'd instantly demand full pay for the whole period and everyone would think, yes that's reasonable. But as women we should just be grateful for any morsels we can get.

Sorry this is just a rant I guess but I can't believe its the 21st century and we are still screwed over. And now when I look at men I just think what do you even do? How much do you pull your weight at home? Who have you trampled on to get to where you are professionally? I judge them, I judge them harshly.

I always thought that female multitasking was a myth / stereotype.

Until we had our baby, and I realised that DH can’t do two things at the same time. He’s hands-on but only for the task at hand. And once that’s done he doesn’t automatically move in to the next thing.

He also expects a Blue Peter badge every time! Today he was unable to push the pram & watch out for dog shite at the same time...

Drives him mad that I get “distracted” from what I was doing, but he can’t see that I’m spinning plates. And that his life would be chaos if I wasn’t always doing something.

@Wormholes

You nailed the problem in your first three words.

The answer? Don't have kids. Live carefree, like a bloke.

The most carefree blokes i know have more children than I have fingers.

Well, I do know 2 separate parents, where the mother continued to work fulltime, the father became a SAHP.
The couple I know best, then yes, the mother took maternity leave for a few months to breast feed etc, but she is now back at work and her DH does the day to day care.
It is not ideal either way as the working parent has all the responsibility of providing the income.

I don't understand. You live with male housemates who help you out and you're comparing that to a co-parenting relationship?

I expect @lljkk is answering the OP's original question about what "men" do.

I took the year because childcare is expensive so it "made sense" that I took the full year - it would have be more expensive if I went back to work full time. Which is another thing, I'm back part-time and partner is compressed hours. We have a hefty mortgage and trying to save our savings as it were.

Yes, when not working partner is on it as a parent and we split the mental load. But, rather depressingly, I know way too many friends partners and husbands who are not like this.

We have been discussing the solutions tonight, between us we mitigate the inequalities as much as we can but really it comes down to the numbers. It's the finances that means that I'm the one that has to alter my life to accommodate the process of having and looking after the children.

As pp have said l had no idea about the inequality until l had a baby.
Doesn't matter how many days l go to work, or how hard l worked to get a job that fits around childcare, society just doesn't see me as an equal because l earn a lot less than DH.
He is great and l have full control of the household finances but we both know l couldn't live off my salary alone.
Raise children as if you don't work and work as if you don't have children comes to mind.

Raise children as if you don't work and work as if you don't have children comes to mind

As a single parent, that's exactly the guilt I feel every day.

[quote Puppysharness]@SunflowerGiraffe I’m very open to hearing more about this. What do you mean by structural prejudice?

I should add, if the OP thinks she’s been discriminated against at work and paid less than her DH despite similar backgrounds, then that feels like an issue and conversation worth discussing on its own. It shouldn’t be conflated with the point about parental leave.[/quote]
Thank you. It is worth considering, because we accept so much at face value as "the way it is" but it certainly doesn't have to be designed like that.

In my post 40 mins ago I described some of the structural inequalities in more detail.

Personally i wouldn't have wanted my partner to share mat leave with me, especially as his nipples are useless whereas mine provide milk, but I do think we should follow other countries (Germany, Sweden, and many others) that offer full pay and the option for mum to take first year and dad second I believe, as well as other benefits with child care.
The system is designed for men to thrive in the workplace and women to take a back seat and focus on raising children, many may argue against that but that's just our society. Its good that some women are fighting this and doing both, but I do think the majority are unable too. Things have and are changing but not fast enough or in line with a number of other countries.

I'm really sad that women on this thread didn't know about inequality/ thought we didn't need feminism before they had children. Hopefully though, this means the next generation will because they'll be taught by those women and they can make their life choices while well-informed.

@Draineddraineddrained

On the one hand of course there will be tons of people piling in to say "it's your choooooice" - to have kids, to have them with a man who earns more than you, not to make shared parental leave a condition of having kids with him, etc etc etc. And all the women who will blame you for "allowing" your DP not to pull his weight.

But fundamentally yes, being the childbearing sex fucks us over fundamentally in the finance and independence stakes in a capitalist society where our main value is as units of economic production. Indeed you could say the whole patriarchal shit show is as a result of this as it boils down, basically, to men wanting to control women as much as possible so they can be absolutely sure she bears their offspring and no other male's.

And yes, if I'm absolutely honest, the older I get the more I think men are by far the weaker sex - less adaptable, less resourceful, less articulate, less perceptive, less collaborative, less loving, lower pain thresholds, more selfish. And absolutely crippled by their own emotional illiteracy, which turns any complex emotions they can't handle into the blunt instrument that is anger.

Mothers' commune anyone???

I think I love you! I’m in

@GertrudePerkinsPaperyThing

Well put *@SunflowerGiraffe*

Although I hope men don’t have to be all those things you say, and that it’s possible to raise better ones.

I'm not saying anything bad about men. I have lots of men in my life that I love: brothers, a father, a son, nephews! My issue is that the way men are socialised and our social structure is set up necessarily disadvantages women.

Girls get better grades than boys across the board most years at GCSE and A level. More girls go to university, more of them then, as women, achieve better grades than the men.

Then it all goes wrong. Why? Because of socialisation of both sexes, expectations etc etc. The way the financial system is constructed to make it the "obvious choice" for the woman to sacrifice her career.

I am raising my boy to be a good man. I am sure we all are!! But until the gender stereotypes and structural issues are dealt with, I fear women will always fight an uphill battle for equality. As many PP have said, stupidly in my 20s I believed I could do anything my brothers could. Then I had children and the reality was revealed. I really hope it'll be better for my daughter but am not holding my breath.

I suppose my only criticism of men in general here is that one reason for so little change is that the status quo suits them, and far too few stand up against sexism with their friends or colleagues, which would make a huge difference.

Not really the point of the thread but -

My husband earns over 150% of my salary and we still decided to take the hit and share leave. We are lucky that we are both on good salaries but it would still have made financial sense for him not to, but it was important to us both for him to spend at least a month in sole charge.

Plenty of couples earn the same or similar or the woman earns more (I personally know a lot of couples where the woman out earns the man). Although I know a few that have shared leave the woman has done most because of breastfeeding but also I know a lot of women who have not helped themselves with 'I'm not giving up any of my leave, I deserve it!' type comments. I know this is a complex area and in many cases it may be because their husbands are shit but its not always.

My husband does equal everything with me. Childcare, house chores, mental load.

@dohdohdoh

I took the year because childcare is expensive so it "made sense" that I took the full year - it would have be more expensive if I went back to work full time. Which is another thing, I'm back part-time and partner is compressed hours. We have a hefty mortgage and trying to save our savings as it were.

Yes, when not working partner is on it as a parent and we split the mental load. But, rather depressingly, I know way too many friends partners and husbands who are not like this.

We have been discussing the solutions tonight, between us we mitigate the inequalities as much as we can but really it comes down to the numbers. It's the finances that means that I'm the one that has to alter my life to accommodate the process of having and looking after the children.

It's shit, OP, but I do think we need to start being honest about the fact that women's own choices are contributing to this.

Young women in their twenties now out-earn young men in the same age bracket, and yet we still see that it's almost always the mother who takes a step back from her career when kids come along. Why is that? If young women are earning more than young men pre- children, how is it that the woman so often seems to be the lower earner in a relationship? Is it that women are seeking out older, richer husbands? And if so, why? Are they still looking for men who can be good "providers"? Or is there something else going on?

I get really frustrated by the typical trajectory post children. As a senior manager, I've dealt with hundreds of requests for flexibility in relation to childcare over the years - part time or compressed hours, flexible start and finish times, time off to care for dependants etc. Those requests almost invariably come from women. There is nothing about the jobs that the men do that would make such adjustments impossible, it's simply the case that the male staff barely ever ask. I often wonder why this is. They have every bit as much chance of getting their request granted as the female staff, but they don't seem to feel the need to take on those responsibilities.

Personally, I will be teaching my dd to really think about all of this before she gets into a committed relationship. I will strongly encourage her to choose someone with comparable earning potential to her own so that they can have an equal partnership. I don't want her to be forced into a position where everything falls to her because her partner is just far too busy and important. On the other hand, I don't want her to feel that she has to prop her partner up financially. I want her to have a truly equal relationship because it can be shit on both sides when there is a massive earning gap.

It isn't popular to say that women's choices are contributing to the ongoing inequalities, but I think we need to be honest about this if we really want change. Nothing is going to change unless we make it happen. Our kids will repeat these same cycles unless we encourage them to do things differently.

@sociallydistained

I knew what a shitty deal women got and yet here I am. I was discussing pensions with my older friend recently who raised two children and there wasn’t NI contributions or something when she was raising her two. She said she lost out on so much for raising her two. I remember thinking I’m glad I haven’t had kids as my pension is looking okay as I have been contributing a fair bit …. I was unknowingly pregnant whilst thinking this. I’ve since reduced my pension contribution considerably in order to save for mat leave.

I would honestly love a girl but I don’t see much change in her future either and that’s depresses and scares me.

Has your DP reduced his pension to save for maternity leave too? These sacrifices should be being made by both of you, preferably with nobody reducing their pension too much.

Also consider renting out your home rather than selling it. Both to maintain a little independence from knowing you have somewhere to go if you ever want to split with DP, since you're not moving in with him out of love but necessity, and to keep in your possession the increasing value of the property.

And yes, if I'm absolutely honest, the older I get the more I think men are by far the weaker sex - less adaptable, less resourceful, less articulate, less perceptive, less collaborative, less loving, lower pain thresholds, more selfish. And absolutely crippled by their own emotional illiteracy, which turns any complex emotions they can't handle into the blunt instrument that is anger.

God this. All of this. The only greater strength they have is physical. I'll join the commune

@ouchmyfeet

And yes, if I'm absolutely honest, the older I get the more I think men are by far the weaker sex - less adaptable, less resourceful, less articulate, less perceptive, less collaborative, less loving, lower pain thresholds, more selfish. And absolutely crippled by their own emotional illiteracy, which turns any complex emotions they can't handle into the blunt instrument that is anger.

God this. All of this. The only greater strength they have is physical. I'll join the commune

None of this is true about my dh

@DrinkFeckArseBrick

Not really the point of the thread but -

My husband earns over 150% of my salary and we still decided to take the hit and share leave. We are lucky that we are both on good salaries but it would still have made financial sense for him not to, but it was important to us both for him to spend at least a month in sole charge.

Plenty of couples earn the same or similar or the woman earns more (I personally know a lot of couples where the woman out earns the man). Although I know a few that have shared leave the woman has done most because of breastfeeding but also I know a lot of women who have not helped themselves with 'I'm not giving up any of my leave, I deserve it!' type comments. I know this is a complex area and in many cases it may be because their husbands are shit but its not always.

My husband does equal everything with me. Childcare, house chores, mental load.

That is great. And systems like the Swedish one would encourage far more of this (without such a financial hit). Lots of evidence that a father doing sole parenting in the early years/ months regularly will lead to a more equitable division in the future and also it better for establishing a strong bond between the child and both parents. As well as the obvious impact on reducing discrimination against mothers in the workplace.

With the current UK system though many simply can't afford to share the leave. And for example if the man has recently changed jobs (but been working and paying tax throughout with not even a day of unemployment!) sharing leave isn't permitted. Again, structural design problems that impact real world dynamics. The cynical part of me would say not entirely unintentionally, because always to the disadvantage of the woman.

There's also the physical exhaustion and physical toll that pregnancy takes, it's a big deal for a body to go through that and natural to need some rest period after.

The thread isn't bashing men it's the whole system and the way it is set up. If it was the norm for men to take the 2nd year as paternity leave it would create a different mentality around the situation.

The only option for women seems to be not to have children. It'd be interesting if few chose to wouldn't it. Attitudes would soon have to change.

Ok, so you took a year off after having a baby because it was cheaper than paying for childcare.

Did you ever think that you were extremely fortunate to be able to spend time bonding with your baby and nurturing them? I expect your partner would have loved the chance too.

Maybe the issue is that the man isn't working hard enough, if he could earn enough to support his family you wouldn't have to work.

Throw the issue back to the man!

And yes, if I'm absolutely honest, the older I get the more I think men are by far the weaker sex

I have always thought this, it seems so obviously true. It always astonishes me that people think otherwise and lengths society will go to to create circumstances in which men will shine. Football, for example. Or workplaces completely separated from family life.

Another observation is that the man earning more thing is a lie. When women earn more, they also stay home or manage more of the home stuff. They're just quieter about it when they do. Not sure why

You could have split parental leave, you could have adopted or used a surrogate so you had no need for you to take leave at all.

It's hilarious that you think adopting a child and taking zero leave to help them adjust to being part of a new family, is in any way a viable or humane option. I'm not even going to go there with the surrogacy idea. What could be simpler, eh?

"There's also the physical exhaustion and physical toll that pregnancy takes, it's a big deal for a body to go through that and natural to need some rest period after."

This is true and whilst sadly some people with birth injuries or health issues do take a year or longer to fully recover, most people with a straightforward birth are back to feeling ok and being able to work within a few months. I had severe anaemia, a traumatic birth and an episiotomy that didnt heal and ended up with a retained placenta etc and after about 4 months I would have felt ok to go back into the office (appreciate this will vary by job as well). Its a small minority of women who genuinely need the whole year to recover

I'd have hated to be a man years ago when they had to go off fighting in wars, dying in trenches. Some countries still have call up too. It's not always the man who gets it easy.