What do men even do?

[dohdohdoh]

Since having kids I look at men and think what do you even do?!

What hurdles do they have in their life?

I have a great partner and we try to make things 50:50 but I hate that:

• Despite being in similar lines of work he earns more than me
• I have had to take maternity leave because financially he earns more than me and it "makes sense" (so hasn't had to look after 2 under 3 for the last year, while he's at work)
• That raising my children is literally worth no money in return (I don't get anything for the last 12 weeks of my 1 year of mat leave - yes I'm "lucky" to get something for the first 9 months)

And basically all the other minor and major injustices of being a woman!

I just can't help but think if once women give birth and society deemed men should then look after a baby for the next 12 months, they'd instantly demand full pay for the whole period and everyone would think, yes that's reasonable. But as women we should just be grateful for any morsels we can get.

Sorry this is just a rant I guess but I can't believe its the 21st century and we are still screwed over. And now when I look at men I just think what do you even do? How much do you pull your weight at home? Who have you trampled on to get to where you are professionally? I judge them, I judge them harshly.

Yes having a child is a choice.

What you shouldn't then also have to sign up for is:

• poor mat leave conditions like low SMP or no pay
• because of being the only one with significant time off with the baby end up being the "primary" parent who has to lead on all things related to the child from weaning to school uniforms for the next 18 years as a result
• having to work part time because childcare is so expensive
• or having to pay a fortune in childcare and work full time

I like how rather than make society fairer for men and women when it comes to raising children your solution is that women basically shouldn't have kids if they're not happy with the current conditions 😂

And like a PP said, inequality will find you. Even if you don't have kids, say you have ageing parents, watch as everyone steps back and expects you to be the carer.

Women who want to do exactly the same as men in a relationship are surely the minority.

Men should certainly be doing more but I don’t think that necessarily means splitting every task 50/50.

My parents and grandparents seemed to have far more equal relationships because the men contributed far more energy to the household even if they did less childcare.

Many men now seem to do very little of anything.

@vivainsomnia

Men expect women to work and earn now, but don't want to step up and help carry the mental load, and do more housework or parenting in return And how many women show any I test and care over their partner's mental stress at work? Very little. They take it for granted that they go to work, do little whilst enjoying socialising with colleagues, have freedom to take breaks, go to lunches, and then come home, refreshed as when they left in the morning and expected to pick things up from there.

I worked with such men and I felt really sorry for them. Their wives had no interest at all in their working life yet expected them to be fully involved in their wife every day issues, sympathise with every slight difficulties they faced. Wives who were just so self absorbed, they really believed they carried the whole world on their shoulders.

Because women have so much more to lose than men they have to fight, constantly, to be afforded the same rights as men
This is so much rubbish. Every woman has the choice to have a career, and indeed, many do. What you can't have is you cake and eat it, as in, not bother to get on the ladder in the first place, want to stay home with the kids when they are little, have more than 1 or 2, work PT, yet still have the successful and well paid career.

Women who manage to gave kids and a career are not lucky. They made the same choices and sacrifices that men make to do so.

I don’t recognise your scenario here at all. Most men and women have work stresses and good partners support one another. Work isn’t a soley male preserve but pregnancy and birth is solely female.

Some excellent posts on here by some very sharp women.

To your question OP, 'What do men even do' the answer is really 'what they want' - men are conditioned to do what benefits them and IME that is their main driver.

The older I get the more I feel that patriarchy/patriarchial institutions don't work. Marriage just locks women into domestic and sexual servitude. Childrearing, especially the difficult and drudgery bits, is an exercise ultimately done by women as men are fairly disinterested in all but the lovely bits. Work life is still adjusted for men and somehow even the most average men are able to have good careers.

In all of this I am truly baffled by the many women who: make excuses for men, blame women for men's failings, enable men to make their lives as easy as possible (thus continuing the inequality) and/or are happy to suck up the status quo for an easy life e.g. 'I support my husband in his well paid job and I get to stay home and enjoy my hobbies. Oh and his money is my money blah blah'. Why women, why??????!!!!

'I support my husband in his well paid job and I get to stay home and enjoy my hobbies. Oh and his money is my money blah blah'. Why women, why??????!!!!’

There’s nothing wrong with being a SAHM. If women are stuck in relationships with lazy and selfish men, that has nothing to do with other women being SAHMs where the overall amount of work is shared equally between the people in the relationship.

You could have split parental leave, you could have adopted or used a surrogate so you had no need for you to take leave at all.

Yes, let's create a breeding class of women. The ones who have babies for women who want to have children and a career.

That will definitely address the underlying structural issues, elevate the value of childbearing and rearing in society, and absolutely be in the best interests of all concerned, not least the child. Wonderful suggestion.

@EdgeOfACoin

You could have split parental leave, you could have adopted or used a surrogate so you had no need for you to take leave at all.

Yes, let's create a breeding class of women. The ones who have babies for women who want to have children and a career.

That will definitely address the underlying structural issues, elevate the value of childbearing and rearing in society, and absolutely be in the best interests of all concerned, not least the child. Wonderful suggestion.

Absolutely

I agree op but certainly in terms of my own situation, I see it a lot as my own doing. Yes society shaped my view such that I just slowly over the years have become the default laundry doer, the one who makes sure all the food is in, the one who cooks it, the one to just happens to know who needs what for school each day. But I've let it happen, I could have at any point refused to be that person and insisted that my dh take the load of any of those things. I think we often justify it as ah well he is the higher earner and his job is more stressful than mine. I did and yet I've always worked full time too and I'm now by far the higher earner. And still do all the "women's" work. Imagine having been able to work full time and still do all that shit? That there is why women are the stronger sex.

@Waferbiscuit

Some excellent posts on here by some very sharp women.

To your question OP, 'What do men even do' the answer is really 'what they want' - men are conditioned to do what benefits them and IME that is their main driver.

The older I get the more I feel that patriarchy/patriarchial institutions don't work. Marriage just locks women into domestic and sexual servitude. Childrearing, especially the difficult and drudgery bits, is an exercise ultimately done by women as men are fairly disinterested in all but the lovely bits. Work life is still adjusted for men and somehow even the most average men are able to have good careers.

In all of this I am truly baffled by the many women who: make excuses for men, blame women for men's failings, enable men to make their lives as easy as possible (thus continuing the inequality) and/or are happy to suck up the status quo for an easy life e.g. 'I support my husband in his well paid job and I get to stay home and enjoy my hobbies. Oh and his money is my money blah blah'. Why women, why??????!!!!

@Waferbiscuit massive generalisation.. Marriage isn’t compulsory!

You sound bitter like many of other posts on this thread.

As for the competitive ‘who’s the stronger/weaker sex?’ Neither are. We need both sexes for human survival and this sexist rubbish saying that women are somehow ‘better’ than men is just as bad as the patriarchy.

Women are definitely not better than men or vice versa.

But, just as taking care of children radicalised me as a feminist, becoming more senior at work has revealed to me that the things society values, (the stuff men do), is actually easier than the stuff women do for less reward/acclaim

Or to put it another way- it would be easy to be a focused, productive CEO if one had a stay at home wife.

@MaskingForIt

Go back to work after 9 months then. It isn’t compulsory to have a whole year off.

….spectacularly misses the point

@Waferbiscuit massive generalisation.. Marriage isn’t compulsory! You sound bitter like many of other posts on this thread.

Why when women acknowledge institutionalized sexism and get angry are they always told that they are bitter? Should we just smile and nod, girls, smile and nod??!!

No @Waferbiscuit and I’m very sorry for those who have suffered bad relationships. But why tar all men with the same brush? Some of the comments on this thread are just ridiculous - men (in general) are lazy, patriarchal, selfish etc. That’s blatant sexism. Why is sexism ok when directed at men??

DohDohDoh Good point about elderly care, I work in this field and it's nearly always the daughter or daughter in law who is the care giver or in charge of arranging the care givers.

Waferbiscuit
"Bitter" is another misogynistic term, used to put outspoken women in their place. Bitter is almost never applied to men. Unless it's a pint of.

@ShitPoetryClub I disagree. I would use the term ‘bitter’ to describe a man just as likely as I would use the term ‘selfish’ or ‘lazy’ to decide a woman.

*poor mat leave conditions like low SMP or no pay

• because of being the only one with significant time off with the baby end up being the "primary" parent who has to lead on all things related to the child from weaning to school uniforms for the next 18 years as a result
• having to work part time because childcare is so expensive
• or having to pay a fortune in childcare and work full time*

All these are choices. All these come down to JOINT decisions that should be made BEFORE having children.

Morhers are not forced to take 12 months off. I took 6 months after my first and 5 after my second. I would have much preferred to take more but both times I had a very good career opportunity (yes, was looking for jobs whilst in maternity) so I cut it short and this helped my career.

As I worked FT, it was agreed from the start that my oh would do as much as me. We devided tasks, we sticked to them.

Childcare was expensive. I didn't pay for it. WE did.

This post just shows that the issue is that women want their cake and eat it. You just have to see how many absolutely refuse 50/50 arrangement for their kids when they separate because they absolute want the primary care role. Yet everything should be made to allow them to be so AND to access top careers.

Top careers demand sacrifices and commitment that is hard when you are a primary carer. If these roles were so easy, every men and childless women would be there.

Women with primary care of their kids can do it, by giving up some of the benefits that come with being so and/or ensuring more of a share from their partner, but accepting that their progression, and therefore increase in income might be a bit slower.

I could have at any point refused to be that person and insisted that my dh take the load of any of those things.

But this starts from the premise that damages women all the time - that you are in charge of doing it or seeing to it that it gets done.

Another book rec, OP, is Who Cooked Adam Smith's Dinner?

Spoiler: his mum. She did everything for him so he could Do Great Thinking.

Tbh I think that 2 things might help (structurally) to get the equality ball rolling further:

1. Universal Basic Income alongside paid parental leave with job protections for caring responsibilities (babies, parents, incapacitated spouse) with the proviso that it applies equally. As a nudge I would prefer a "use it or lose it" portion of parental leave to apply to fathers for 30 years to help society get used to fathers taking on more of that

1. Much more pressure (also from govt if necessary) to get more women (and other minorities) further up the career ladder (dusclaimer: if that is what they want) and much more working hours, job sharing, hybrid working etc.

Our expectations of employers should be much much higher

[quote bendmeoverbackwards]@thepeopleversuswork I don't really understand the difference between your first paragraph and second. Are you saying it's ok for a man to share his earnings but not a woman to share hers?[/quote]
actually, given that a woman may end up not earning, or having lower earnings later due to childcare and maternity, then yes, that is possibly a reason that an inequality in this respect may be wise.

Its about looking at earnings and pensions as a lifetime amount, rather than an 'in the moment' or 'pre children' amount.

Its also well known that womens excess money more often goes 'on family' and men's money often goes 'on mens stuff'

Its one of the reasons why in places where they are adressing extreme poverty, many charities will support female entreprenurism / female run business as the impact on the greater society and children is better.

A man pooling his money with a woman who is then going to financially impacted from that point forward, is his contribution to that unpaid labour

A woman is already giving her contribution in the unpaid labour - she shouldnt then have to actually pay for it with money too.

We often see this - a woman 'saving her money' for maternity cover - why isnt her partner equally saving? A woman scrimping and using her money to pay for all the child/baby related things - why isnt he paying an equal or all of the cost of this?

her money pot drained empty while he is still able to go out or have savings, and her then potentially unable to get back to the higher earning job she once had while he progresses up the ladder, supported by her taking on all the gruntwork behind the scenes, as strangely many men seem to drop the ball on the equal doing of chores while she is at home, and seem very reluctant to pick them up again once they have realised how comfy it is having a new mummy

Plus you need to always bear in mind the potential when things go wrong. If you are a woman, you are most likely to end up as the resident parent, so needing to support more people on your wage, and needing to provide and run a bigger home, whilst juggling childcare and its impact on your work. Men can and do walk off without a backward glance and wave bye bye to all that impact

@TedMullins

I do agree with all that but I think it can also apply in relationships where the woman was a SAHM but the kids are now adults, but she never got a job and the man continues to be the sole earner. I don’t think that’s fair either - I know if I were him I’d be thinking ‘the child rearing is done, get off your arse and go to work’. I think if you’re going for a one parent at home, one going to work set up, that needs to be agreed between both parties and timescales set - I can’t imagine anyone these days would expect to be a SAHM past school age or that any modern man would be willing to accept that. But if that’s the dynamic you’re going for, the onus will be on the working parent to support the one at home, whatever the genders involved (and in same sex relationships too). If no children are involved then no there’s absolutely no reason to pool money at all and I don’t subscribe to this belief that both parties should automatically have equal spending money

I suppose this depends on their set up and their arrangements. Maybe the SAHM has taken on 100% of the household management and domestic work, and the husband is quite happy knowing that when the 9-5 is done, he doesnt have to lift a finger, and will come home to a clean house, a nice dinner, his shirts freshly pressed and his work/life diary managed.

Its a traditional role, its the wifes 'payoff' for the childrearing, perhaps. If people want to do that, then thats all good. But this is the crux - both people need to be onside and in agreement

I also dont see too many men being that happy if they demand a woman 'gets off her arse' and it means they have to start doing 50% of the household tasks in addition to their work in exchange for half her money, which may only be min wage depending upon how long she has been out of the workforce. Or have to start picking up the childcare if they are of primary school age.

@vivainsomnia do you think we've reached the pinnacle of choices and options that don't screw anyone over and that we should therefore be happy with the options on offer to us at the moment? You don't think they could be better?

As I've said before my partner is one of the "good ones" we share the mental load etc etc. But when it comes down to it, despite being a similar ages etc. he earns more, and there are decisions that are made as a consequence of this... ones that have a profound effect on my life and almost no effect on his life - and this is the story of women and men across the country and across the world.

There have been people who have said I should have prepared better by saving in advance so that I could go back to work sooner and he could stay at home, but the thing is we saved so hard to finally buy our house, that it felt like we had already left it "too late" to start having kids.

So there is the pressure to not leave it too late but to also the pressure for me/us to get all conditions perfect so that I can have "choices" about how and when I return to work etc.

I titled the thread "what do men even do?" because I feel like the way life is set up it gives them very few obstacles to navigate, either/or decisions to make which lead to sacrifices. Whereas women have loads, particularly in the childbearing years of life, as a result I see men differently now - even the "good ones" get an easy life by default of the system.

Do men have any of the following pressures or expectations?:

• to have a baby
• to take shared parental leave
• to be a "good" parent
• to enjoy fatherhood
• to work flexibly for childcare reasons (though I think covid is changing this)

I think women have much of the above that's not even mentioning the additional pressures and expectations have like:

• having the perfect natural birth
• breastfeeding
• getting your figure back
• enjoying mat leave
• enjoying motherhood

Having children is what screws women. I knew when very young that I didn’t want children, and that never changed. I have never met a woman whose life wasn’t diminished by having them. I’m a pretty privileged woman, and it isn’t always money that keeps their worlds small. It’s that all energies are dispensed into another, the light dims. It’s cool if one is happy with this, but I know some who are constantly rubbing at the restrictions, and my heart slightly breaks for them.

Well yes, personally I don’t think a dynamic where the woman does 100% of the housework but the man works and doesn’t lift a finger is a healthy one to aim for. I think it’s inherently misogynist. I think it’s understandable for the balance to be skewed if one parent is home full time in the early years but certainly as the kids get older and into secondary age I think a healthier set up is for both parents to equally share the chores, home and financial burdens. I don’t doubt there are lifelong SAHMs out there whose partners think it’s great all they have to do is go to work and do nothing at home, while the SAH partner lives a ‘leisurely’ life of housework, but in my opinion this suggests ingrained misogyny on both their parts and I don’t think it’s a good example to set children.

One of the major investment banks, think it was Barclays or HSBC did a survey to understand why there were more female MDs in Hong Kong than London and New York combined. Apparently it’s all down the the expense of childcare in the latter. It’s not wrong. If a women always has childcare at the back of her mind (and it always is women) then her career will always suffer.
Even my own husband who I’d have said is a good husband and dad said something to me the other day that made me realise that he is as much a misogynist as the rest of them.
He’s been unemployed for a year and he has done all childcare and home related things, drop off, pick up, shopping, shopping, activities etc without complaint (ish)
I have a full time job.

He has now found a job starting in a few weeks time and he now thinks this should all fall to me. It will pay approx 100% than mine so his job becomes the main job to prioritise. So now he is washing his hands of childcare and I now need to find before and after school care and when I asked him for his input on the options (after school/nanny/childminder He said that I have spent the last year saying it’s his problem (true because he didn’t work and i did) so now it’s my problem now that he has found a job.

I literally could have throttled him at that point.
Doesn’t change things though. I’m now frantically trying to organise childcare for September (whilst trying to do my job). He is off out playing golf.