What do men even do?

[dohdohdoh]

Since having kids I look at men and think what do you even do?!

What hurdles do they have in their life?

I have a great partner and we try to make things 50:50 but I hate that:

• Despite being in similar lines of work he earns more than me
• I have had to take maternity leave because financially he earns more than me and it "makes sense" (so hasn't had to look after 2 under 3 for the last year, while he's at work)
• That raising my children is literally worth no money in return (I don't get anything for the last 12 weeks of my 1 year of mat leave - yes I'm "lucky" to get something for the first 9 months)

And basically all the other minor and major injustices of being a woman!

I just can't help but think if once women give birth and society deemed men should then look after a baby for the next 12 months, they'd instantly demand full pay for the whole period and everyone would think, yes that's reasonable. But as women we should just be grateful for any morsels we can get.

Sorry this is just a rant I guess but I can't believe its the 21st century and we are still screwed over. And now when I look at men I just think what do you even do? How much do you pull your weight at home? Who have you trampled on to get to where you are professionally? I judge them, I judge them harshly.

@thepeopleversuswork I don't really understand the difference between your first paragraph and second. Are you saying it's ok for a man to share his earnings but not a woman to share hers?

In some ways I see your point op. I earn less than dp, going back part time as it will make financial sense, going part time has also put me back to a 'normal' worker instead of a senior.I'm on mat leave just now and it's rather boring, I remember with my first it was more interesting but I think I'm just remembering the better parts. Though dp has had to make some compromise, he will only be playing rugby maybe once a month, he can't really train for it as the nights are just too busy that's the only thing he's really missing out on.

I’m saying that one of the pieces of advice most commonly given to women on mumsnet: that money is shared or pooled in a family, it’s technically true but it’s also an article of faith that every marriage should be underpinned by shared money and assets. This works beautifully if you are the lower earner and not so beautifully if you are the higher earner.

It should be incumbent on men to pool money when their spouse or partner is off work with children obviously but the moral case for pooling assets breaks down a bit in a scenario where there’s a high earning woman supporting a lower paid bloke who quite likes coasting.

Are we allowed to feel that we are in loving relationships, where we feel our husbands / partners take in their fair share of things?

Or have I got to feel like I am a downtrodden women with no opportunities?

Re the joint bank account - we have a joint account. DH earns about 12k more than me these days. We have savings that we also share. We share everything

@harverina

Of course you are. But pooling finances would be too risky for me. It’s different if you’re the lower earner. If you out earn your partner and don’t have kids pooling finances will s asking for trouble. Even with kids I don’t think it’s ideal.

YouWereGr8InLittleMenstruators
Lalala, may I, slightly facetiously, point out that for every single mum, there is a single dad too... All those absent fathers are still fathers who are, perhaps, single.

Well that is the most pointless point I've ever heard - obviously the term "single parent" refers to the parent who actually looks after and has responsibility for the child(ren). No one calls absent parents "single parents", as they are not doing any parenting.

@bendmeoverbackwards yes of course. Money is pooled. I was just using it as an example.

@Draineddraineddrained

On the one hand of course there will be tons of people piling in to say "it's your choooooice" - to have kids, to have them with a man who earns more than you, not to make shared parental leave a condition of having kids with him, etc etc etc. And all the women who will blame you for "allowing" your DP not to pull his weight.

But fundamentally yes, being the childbearing sex fucks us over fundamentally in the finance and independence stakes in a capitalist society where our main value is as units of economic production. Indeed you could say the whole patriarchal shit show is as a result of this as it boils down, basically, to men wanting to control women as much as possible so they can be absolutely sure she bears their offspring and no other male's.

And yes, if I'm absolutely honest, the older I get the more I think men are by far the weaker sex - less adaptable, less resourceful, less articulate, less perceptive, less collaborative, less loving, lower pain thresholds, more selfish. And absolutely crippled by their own emotional illiteracy, which turns any complex emotions they can't handle into the blunt instrument that is anger.

Mothers' commune anyone???

Omg I love the last paragraph!

What sexist nonsense @Draineddraineddrained Some women are how you describe and some men.

Why are such sexist comments even allowed on here??

@Susannahmoody

We're utterly fucked over, time and time again.

Here's my tuppence worth :

Terrible medical care for women, especially anything to do with the reproductive system. Pre natal, and even more so, post natal care is generally of a very poor standard. Women account for 50% of the population. That's half. HALF of the population get terrible healthcare.

Nurseries are extortionate. They need to be government subsidised, FROM BIRTH, for all children. It needs to be regulated, government run, inclusive and educational. This would enable children from poor socio-economic backgrounds to a get head start, and enable women to go back to work, gaining independence.

Jobs that women traditionally get into need to be better paid and better trained. I'd personally waiver the fees on nursing, teaching, ECE courses to encourage more women into careers. This would be in return for 3/5/7 or whatever years of UK employment.

Financial literacy in schools. Not just for girls, but for boys too. They need to know about mortgages, what having a child entails, marriage. It's not just Disney fairy tales.

I don’t agree. As a society we should ensure that parents can take time out of work and that men take their fair share (they absolutely do not). Having a baby and caring for it should not mean the end of your career.

Imagine if you got 2 years job protection, full pay, incentives to split between dads and mums and then fully funded childcare from 2. That would be great for children and parents.

We shouldn’t let businesses dictate our society. Society should be structure around what it means to be human. Humans reproduce and baby humans need close care. Most parents want to provide it but also don’t want to lose their jobs, money or have to do it alone (tiring and exhausting).

@thepeopleversuswork

I’m saying that one of the pieces of advice most commonly given to women on mumsnet: that money is shared or pooled in a family, it’s technically true but it’s also an article of faith that every marriage should be underpinned by shared money and assets. This works beautifully if you are the lower earner and not so beautifully if you are the higher earner.

It should be incumbent on men to pool money when their spouse or partner is off work with children obviously but the moral case for pooling assets breaks down a bit in a scenario where there’s a high earning woman supporting a lower paid bloke who quite likes coasting.

Pooling money only ever works in favour of the lower earner, and even then, sharing everything leaves you open to financial abuse if the other party controls finances and you have no money to access that it solely yours. I don’t think you can say men should always pool their earnings with lower paid women, but women should never pool with lower paid men! I personally think it’s better if everyone retains separate bank accounts but shares living expenses (of course the working partner should share money with the other on mat leave).

I’m a dedicated feminist but I don’t think double standards is the way to equality, rather, we need to be teaching women from a young age to aim for financial independence first and foremost and retain that, whether they’re a low or high earner.

@TedMullins

I totally agree. Far better in almost any scenario not to pool money.

It wasn't so much saying that men should always pool money with women and women shouldn't with men. In theory it should apply to both sexes. But the assumption that money should always be pooled is problematic: there's a moral obligation, not to mention a practical one, for the higher earner to support the partner who takes time off with children. If men were doing this in large numbers it would be a cleaner argument. But in the vast majority of cases its not the man doing this and I don't think there's any obligation on a high-earning woman to support a fully grown man just because he fancies taking his foot off the pedal.

So I get a bit exasperated when on any thread about money people pile in to point out that all family money should always be pooled. It's a blunt instrument which doesn't really reflect the nuances of many modern relationships.

As a separate point I also think pooling money in the family other than very specific practical purposes such as a fund for repairs or some such breeds dependency which is unhealthy.

I do agree with all that but I think it can also apply in relationships where the woman was a SAHM but the kids are now adults, but she never got a job and the man continues to be the sole earner. I don’t think that’s fair either - I know if I were him I’d be thinking ‘the child rearing is done, get off your arse and go to work’. I think if you’re going for a one parent at home, one going to work set up, that needs to be agreed between both parties and timescales set - I can’t imagine anyone these days would expect to be a SAHM past school age or that any modern man would be willing to accept that. But if that’s the dynamic you’re going for, the onus will be on the working parent to support the one at home, whatever the genders involved (and in same sex relationships too). If no children are involved then no there’s absolutely no reason to pool money at all and I don’t subscribe to this belief that both parties should automatically have equal spending money

[quote thepeopleversuswork]@harverina

Of course you are. But pooling finances would be too risky for me. It’s different if you’re the lower earner. If you out earn your partner and don’t have kids pooling finances will s asking for trouble. Even with kids I don’t think it’s ideal.[/quote]
But how is that fair?! 😂 at one point I earned a bit more - now my DH earns a bit more. We both work hard, neither are “coasters”. If I earned more I would still be happy to have a joint account 🤷‍♀️

@Katekarate

You could have split parental leave, you could have adopted or used a surrogate so you had no need for you to take leave at all

How would that work then? You adopt a child or have a baby via a surrogate and put them straight into childcare without taking leave Heaven help us

OP has a partner... He could've taken leave. She chose to have children biologically, she didn't have to.

“What do men even do?” Well, quite a lot in my husband’s case as he’s worked very hard to give us a fantastic lifestyle.

One woman’s idea of freedom is another woman’s idea of prison. I’ve had 4 DC and been at home all this time (18 years now). I did it because I could - so that is the point of my husband, frankly (among other things). We have different roles and it is what it is. I’m not looking for him to do x,y,z and match me in the “child care” stakes. Quite simply, I don’t need him for that. Equally, he doesn’t need me to be working outside the home as there’s no point.

Women are the childbearing sex and it’s no good trying to pretend everything is all “even stevens” in terms of the physical and emotional (and, by extension, financial) impact of having children because it’s not and it never will be. You only get one life and stressing about the inevitable is largely a waste of energy. It’s just life. But you can reframe the debate. I’m sure some men would live to be SAHD but that choice is more difficult for men. In some ways, women have more choices than men. You just have to play to your advantages.

I still feel as though I have financial independence despite us pooling money. If we separated I will still have my wages, my pension etc. That doesn’t change. I can buy what I want when I want. We would usually discuss larger purchases. But I think / hope we would do that regardless of pooling or not

I don’t think you can say men should always pool their earnings with lower paid women, but women should never pool with lower paid men

Why the difference? Women - never. Men - sometimes. Why?

[quote bendmeoverbackwards]@lifeissweet you despair of what? Of someone having different views to yours?

All I've read so far on this thread is the rights/needs of the woman/mother (or even those of the man/father). What about the needs of the baby or child in question?

This may be an unpopular view but I'm going to say it anyway - I wouldn't feel comfortable after carrying and giving birth to a baby, to give that baby to their other parent to be the sole or main carer. And that's leaving aside any financial considerations. It just feels wrong to me. And that's even with an easy birth. What about women who have had c-sections or difficult births? Or women who choose to breastfeed? Women's bodies need time to heal after being pregnant which can take up to a year. It doesn't sound like a good idea to go back to a full time job 6 or 8 weeks after giving birth. So there is just one example of where there can't ever be true equality.

Secondly - you refer to women being 'disadvantaged'. Yes maybe disadvantaged financially but why is raising children seen as less important than doing a paid job?

We need to change out attitudes.[/quote]
I agree, I might not be modern minded. Probably older than most on here but a baby has bonded with the mother in the womb. It's the mother who the baby needs and vice versa. When I had mine dh was out in all weathers trying to earn enough to support us all. I'd have hated to have done that. Men get it easy in lots of ways but not in that way.

@bendmeoverbackwards

I don’t think you can say men should always pool their earnings with lower paid women, but women should never pool with lower paid men

Why the difference? Women - never. Men - sometimes. Why?

Because men aren't liable to be left up shit creek with babies to support if a higher earning woman gets bored and buggers off with someone more interesting.

Perhaps the most important lesson I learned in my first marriage was that even the best laid future plans can be derailed by a partner who unilaterally decides to change the agreements.

Which led to ant important life lesson entering my second marriage. I am a whole lot more confident and free in the relationship maintaining financial and domestic self sufficiency.

Granted, we no longer have children at home, but I still carry the vast majority of the day to day load, but it is all stuff that I would have to do were I single. Sure, it is physically and mentally taxing at times, but the positive tradeoff is being secure in knowing that if she disappeared tomorrow, at least the day to day nuts and bolts of daily household life would not change at all.

@TedMullins

I do agree with all that but I think it can also apply in relationships where the woman was a SAHM but the kids are now adults, but she never got a job and the man continues to be the sole earner. I don’t think that’s fair either - I know if I were him I’d be thinking ‘the child rearing is done, get off your arse and go to work’. I think if you’re going for a one parent at home, one going to work set up, that needs to be agreed between both parties and timescales set - I can’t imagine anyone these days would expect to be a SAHM past school age or that any modern man would be willing to accept that. But if that’s the dynamic you’re going for, the onus will be on the working parent to support the one at home, whatever the genders involved (and in same sex relationships too). If no children are involved then no there’s absolutely no reason to pool money at all and I don’t subscribe to this belief that both parties should automatically have equal spending money

But in that scenario the wife is often doing all the housework and life admin. Fair enough she could return to work but then DH would have to share the house chores and mental load. If I knew my DH wasn't going to do his share and I'd end up back at work and still doing everything else, I wouldn't feel like returning to work either.

So it’s your husbands fault that he earns more money than you and therefore that meant you had to take the maternity leave?? !!!!
You know you could have both decided that he takes the leave and you both live on your lower salary! It’s your life choices! You were not forced to have children nor forced to take the maternity leave. You choose to do those things …!
I do agree however that stat mayt pay is very low. But I certainly don't expect the tax payer to pay for me to be on Mat leave and lots of companies can’t afford to pay 2 wages for the same job at the same time …

Wow, I wasn't expecting so many responses.

Thank you to those that have recommended books (the thread is so long I now can't find the original posts!). I downloaded Motherhood: A Manifesto by Elaine Glaser - it's brilliant and I feel like this should be essential reading for all women - ideally before kids.

Will try the others too which were:

• Who Cooked the Last Supper
• When God Was a Woman
• The Chalice and the Blade

Anymore recommendations welcome!

I didn't know about the Swedish model makes so much sense (if I recall correctly it's 3 years paid, for both parents to split how they see fit). This would great but political parties in this country would touch it with a barge pole because most people don't think taxes should be used in this way.

I wholly agree with not appreciating just how unequal life can be until you have kids point.

😂 to the people who think I had choices and it's my fault for creating this situation... do you have children?

😂 to the people who think I had choices and it's my fault for creating this situation... do you have children?

But having children is a choice