Grandma using school to get around low contact

[CrunchyApple3]

To be frank, I don't have a great relationship with my Mum. She's always behaved like she has this weird obsession with my life and that she's entitled to know everything about it. When I was a child living at home, this caused me no end of grief - I couldn't keep a diary, get mail without her opening it, or get changed after a shower without her barging into my room and trying to look at me naked. She would constantly criticise me and try to shame me, I grew up with massive confidence issues from listening to her negative comments about my body. There was some physical abuse too when I was very, very young but the mental stuff was far more damaging to me.

I'm a private person and I don't care for anyone, let alone my nosy Mum to know every detail of my life, and once I left home and started to assert my personal autonomy this caused her to get way more obsessive. The less I shared with her, the more she pushed. Once she even broke into my house while I was on holidays and went through my bedroom, then tried to claim that she was "only try to help" by cleaning it for me while I was away. I was 32 years old at that point! This was the trigger I needed to really set down some boundaries with her and not put up with her crazy anymore.

These have mostly worked and given me some space and peace of mind. While Mum stopped coming to my house whenever she felt like it, she is too proud to outright ask me if I'm up for a visitor, so instead she just does weird things like comes to my house (unannounced, still) and leaves things in my driveway for me to find later. It's bizarre as heck but it's like she's doing it just to have a little power flex? I don't know but I just let it be because pick your battles, I suppose?

I have an 8 year old who is in school. I have continued to keep my mother at arm's length, because over the years she's demonstrated to me that she's not a safe person for my kid to be around. Mum has never been left alone with my daughter, she's never babysat her or had her sleepover. Putting aside the fact that I don't trust her, Mum has some medical conditions that limit her mobility and physical strength. If there was some kind of emergency, I don't think she'd be able to react quickly. So my kid sees grandma once every 2-3 months or so - my partner and I will invite grandma over for dinner or we'll go out for lunch somewhere. The last time we had lunch together, Mum started talking about my daughter's school and asking whether they needed volunteers for the canteen. I told her that it was quite physical work involving needing to lift heavy trays of food out of the oven and that you need to be on your feet for most of the day, so not to worry about it. I wasn't bullshitting her, and she lives an hour away from us so I thought that would be the end of it.

But no, about a fortnight ago I got a message in the school p&c group chat welcoming their newest canteen volunteer - my mother. So I went to the school and spoke to the office staff and canteen manager, and warned them that my daughter was not to be taken out of class by my mother and not to be left alone with her, or allowed to be picked up by her after school. The school said they understood, and they'd send an email out to the teachers to get the message out.

About a week later, I received a phone call from the school principal to let me know that after my Mum's first canteen shift, she'd shown up at the office asking to have my daughter come out of class and see her. The staff member told her that they don't like to interrupt the kid's breaks and Mum left, and the principal said "I don't think she was very happy about it". I thanked her for letting me know and asked to pass along my thanks to the staff members as well.

I am just so tired of my Mum trying to push her way into my life, and trying to do it in ways where she can claim plausible deniability and pretend she's "just trying to help!" and make me out to be unreasonable. AIBU?? I've never told my daughter why she is never left alone with her grandma or babysat etc but maybe it would be reasonable to do so now?

The OPs DM obsession is to continue to abuse and harass the OP.

The OPs boundaries have thwarted her direct efforts so she has found a workaround with the DD.

She will be raging that OP has put in boundaries and will use the DD to punish the OP.

The DD will be groomed and then manipulated and fed poison through tantrums and tears to alienate her from her DM.

The GM has form for relentless child abuse - physical and emotional. This abuse has continued into adulthood for the OP.

The GM also has a track record of falling out with family and friends.

This is who the GM is - an abuser. This is how she is driven behave. She can’t take direction - her behaviour is unstable, unhinged, impulsive and compulsive. It will not stop.

If the behaviours that the GM inflicts were sexual abuse rather than “just” emotional abuse would anyone be saying “it’s fine for her to be at the school, build a boundaried relationship with the GM etc” No - anyone, let alone a child should not be exposed to or have to navigate such a high risk situation.

It’s not if she will abuse your DD. It’s when. And she will do it to punish you. She can’t help herself - that’s who she is. Remember the scorpion and the frog story.

I think the school and you have handled this well, for the difficult situation your mother had put you in. I think Twoforthree's idea of a quick email to clarify things and have a paper trail is a good one.

You are not being unreasonable to want to be cautious with your mother around your child. I'm not sure on telling your child at this point as the school seems on top of it, there are benefits and risks either way. There are resources out there on age appropriate ways to discuss things, but it is difficult.

I would probably at least try to go over the rules around pick-up time as that's the first concern that came to my mind. Part of me agrees with other posters on going no contact, but I appreciate that's a difficult step for many people.

I get that you want to treat her harshly but it’s blocking a close relationship.

No, the mother's behaviour, past and present, is what has blocked a close relationship. There is actually very little harsh in what the OP is doing.

Why did your Mum get involved/ worry about your body? I’m not saying her behaviour was good, but why did she do it?*

What is the OP's posts suggests she was worried about the OP's body? Worried people don't shame and mock others. Even if stemmed from worry, it's not appropriate.

Can people never accept the past and move on?

Her mother hasn't accepted the past and is continuing inappropriate behaviours. Having had an abusive parent actually apologize and us working through a very slow email-based relationship, that's a parent accepting some of the past and moving forward.

The OP appears to have accepted the past - she acknowledges the reality that she was in and the mother she has.

Some of us don't get loving mothers. It's sad, but it's reality. The OP is being a loving mother towards her own child. That is one of the best kinds of moving forward.

Accepting the past and moving forward does not rolling over for an abusive person to continue to hurt us. We're not their punching bags, emotionally or otherwise.

I would agree with another poster that the lengths you are going to in order to control your dd's access to her grandma are over the top. Is it possible that your mum could be different with your dd? Is this about protecting your dd or about punishing your mother for your past relationship with her?

Restricting visits to every few months isn't really that extreme, it's what many people who have good relationships with their family but live far away from each other have. I moved to another continent to get away from my parents and they've never had any direct communication with my children -- and I still don't think that's over the top for their behaviour.

It's as much about the present relationship they have as the past. The mother shows no signs of change, and it would be negligent to allow one's child around someone known be abusive without at least supervision.

Our children are not tools for our parents to try to be better. If the mother actually wanted to do different, she would behave different and realize she needs to start from scratch, not jump int to volunteering at a school to get more access.

Hi op, this sounds like such a difficult situation for you and your family. Your mother sounds like she has considerable and profound mental health issues. Basically she is an abusive stalker and ideally I think you should be no contact but I understand why you don’t want to do this. Your mother is an abusive stalker and if the situation escalates at school I think you need to raise it as a safeguarding. I really wish you the best of luck. Nothing except complete control will be good enough for her and I fear you may end up having to get the police involved.

Thank you, OP, this thread has been a good lesson for me in How To Set Boundaries.

Well done. Carry on.

@AbsolutelyPatsy

i have read the op's posts and now she has clarified further i am so sad for you op. the school has your back, grandparents have no rights. do what you think best in the situation

The OP will be so relieved she was able to put your mind at ease. If you’re not aware there’s a handy see all OP’s replies button. Use it. Although the first message should have been enough - her mother abused her and she doesn’t trust her to keep her daughter safe. How was that not sufficient for you?

People are jumping on you because you seem to have extremely low standards when it comes to abuse and safety issues.

OP, what is stopping you from going fully NC and taking out a restraining order against your mother? Are you still stuck in the FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) engendered by abusers to control their victims?
What do you actually get from the LC relationship with your mother? Is there any benefit whatever to suffering her company for a meal every month or two?
I think it gives your abuser mixed messages, and keeps her hope alive of re-establishing control over you.
Going NC, and having a clean break, would liberate you and your DD from this toxic woman for good. Frankly, I think you should have gone to the police as soon as she broke into your house. The shock of being arrested, followed by a restraining order would have done the trick in freeing you from her insane behaviour. But it’s still not too late.
For what it’s worth, I went NC with my abusive parents when I was pregnant with my first DD, specifically to avoid my DDs ever having to meet them. I never saw them again and had no regrets.

This sounds like it has the potential to go tits up very quickly if your DM does not feel she is getting what she wants out of volunteering at the school. Hopefully your DD will not be caught in any crossfire. I think a meeting with the school is certainly needed to ensure they can keep your DD safe.

I couldn't keep a diary, get mail without her opening it, or get changed after a shower without her barging into my room and trying to look at me naked

I had a mother like this. Physical punishment until I was 18. No locks on any bathroom doors. If someone phoned me she'd listen in on the other end (it was the 80s). Constant criticism. She felt she had to have the power. I stepped away from her but then my Dad died and I was forced to confront it.
I just got really straight with her and called her on everything. I took control of the situation and told her her behaviour wasn't normal. I absolutely refused to accept it. Threatened to walk away from her if she carried on. I still have to do it when she starts. 25 years later.
You need to get the upper hand. You need to confront her and tell her she's weird and controlling and if she carries on you'll never see her again. And mean it.

Very sorry you’ve had to deal with this woman OP.

I think she’s doing it as much to get your attention as to see your daughter. She will probably stay there even if she can’t see the daughter.

I would put something in writing to the school saying that this volunteer is your relative and has mental health issues and a pattern of harassing you, the sole reason she is there is to attempt access to your DC, she is never to be left alone with DC etc and you are uncomfortable with her at school at all from a safeguaring point of view as her behaviour is unpredictable. Tell them she has previously broken into your house to show them how unstable she is.

Then separately write to your mother and say that intruding on DC’s school life without your permission is not ok and is confusing to DC, and either she quits the school job or you go no contact with her.

I hope you are OK OP
Lots of wise advice on here but please keep talking to the school.
One of the most important rule in schools is keeping professional boundaries at all times, this applies across the board
I know it's not much of a consolation, but they won't want her there either
I hope you find some peace away from her

Can people never accept the past and move on?

Tragically, when you have lived with an abusive parent who continues that behaviour into your adult life there is no 'past' to accept. Imagine an adult who wants to see their family more - would they speak to their adult child and try to make arrangements, or would they seek out a volunteering job an hour away at their grandchild's school and then try and disrupt that child's school life by pulling them out of routine despite being specifically told not to? Which part of these recent events is the 'past' that the OP needs to move on from? And why on earth would you want to 'move on' from any of that incredibly damaging behaviour?

Original poster I read this thread with empathy and sadness to all involved. I also include your mother/grandmother as I suspect this is a physiological condition regarding coercive control and dependency. I am NOT an expert in this field so please do not take this as qualified professional advice but just sharing general concerns. It seems as though you and your household and school are doing the right and responsible thing. It is important to not disclose your full understanding of this issue with your growing inquisitive child. You need to protect and shield your child first and foremost. There may be the possibility (as only you will know from your direct experience) for your grandmother to impose coercion control on your child. Your mother may need a better more appropriate support network as she may be behaving in this way because of some psychological issues ingrained over decades perhaps from the time she was a child and subjected to such normalised abnormal behaviour too. Good luck original poster and take care of your family and eventually your mother.

@CrunchyApple3
I appreciate NC might be hard to contemplate right now, but it seems to me that this is the next logical step to take, and should probably have been taken long ago.

Yes, your DM may well kick off, but you'll need to remain firm.

I think you may also need a restraining order. The living an hour away and volunteering at the school is a clear escalation of her abuse of you, and moves it all into stalker territory.

She knows where you live. What's going to stop her from following your DD if she's out with friends, to try and talk to her? It doesn't seem like she'll give up.

I'm glad you're going to contact the school, get everything in writing. I also recommend keeping a diary, perhaps starting it off with some background on your own experiences. This will also help towards the RO that I think you're going to need. Collect any evidence as you go, better to be prepared and not need it, than not having the evidence if you do need it.

💐

@AbsolutelyPatsy

mediation is not for people who have rights, it is for grandparents who want to see their grandchildren, they have no rights, so mediation is the suggested way forward.

Suggested by who? Not people who know anything about abuse it isn't. You seem totally oblivious to what abuse is.

Why are the school even allowing her to volunteer? I would explain to them your mother is abusive and they need to get rid.

I’m so sorry you’re in this position OP. I don’t know if it would be worth speaking to the police to see if they can help at all?

My situation was different, but I waited ages to call them because I didn’t think there would be anything they could do to help. They were incredibly helpful in taking me through my options. You might not want to involve them directly with you dm but they might be able to give you confidence and info when speaking to the school.

Please ignore the people who are trying to minimise what she’s doing.

I can’t see her staying on a the school much longer. Either she will realise her plan won’t work, or more likely the school will get rid.
Then she’ll think of something else. I’d consider not having any contact at all. You’ll be constantly playing catch up.

@Cocobean30

Why are the school even allowing her to volunteer? I would explain to them your mother is abusive and they need to get rid.

Presumably she passed whatever checks/interviews were deemed necessary?

Surely they cannot "get rid" just on the say so of the Op?

Ok I think I didn’t read OP carefully enough. Also without your experience or understanding. I think I read to much into her regret and wishes to have a closer relationship.

I won’t be presumptuous to offer advice but YANBU, a normal GP wouldn’t get this position to get closer to a child without the support of their parent.

It's very reassuring that the school took your warning on board and acted on it.. Now they have seen it justified by your Mum's totally inappropriate attempt to withdraw your child from class; so she has really shot herself in the foot.

Her volunteer role may not fall within the "regulated activity list" which triggers an automatic DBS check. However;

   Schools have discretionary power to seek a  (free)  DBS check on any  regular volunteer <strong> even if their role does not fall within the  regulated-activity list</strong>..  They are required to carry out a risk assessment on whether such  an individual warrants a discretionary DBS.  

In your circumstances I would raise this with the school and say that in light of Mum's behaviour and your concern for DD's safety they should carry out a risk assessment on whether Mum warrants a discretionary DBS check. There's a form they have to fill in for a risk assessment.

Even needing to carry out a "risk assessment for discretionary DBS" raises a flag regarding the school's liability position and you may find it 's enough for them to decide "This volunteer is no longer required".

Volunteering at the school seems really obsessive and bordering on stalking - trying to pull a child out of class is all kinds of wrong.

I'm impressed the school is taking it seriously. I'd imagine if the work is physically strenuous and she's not getting to see your DD, she will eventually give up and leave without being told to quit.

OP, sorry, need to be v quick.
So sorry you have had all this in your life.
I have had safeguarding responsibility. They will not see it as drama, they will see it as their job to take it seriously, and will sympathise with you and admire you for handling it.

They need to know the full story. This degree of obsession IS a safeguarding issue.

Also, you are still (understandably) suffering FOG (fear, obligation, guilt). Perfectly normal. But talking about heavy pans is not the same as ‘if you want to volunteer fo to your local school. Do not approach my DD’s school: if you do I will tell them you are not to have contact with Dd’.

She is at you all the time. Constant emotional burden and attrition. Therapy yes: on your own, to help recover from her.

Good luck OP. None of this is your fault. You did well to protect your Dd by warning the school.

@SnarkyBag

I wouldn’t tell your dd anything at this point as it may cause her stress knowing her grandmother is at the school and how you feel about her.

I would make it more hassle than it’s worth for the school to have her as a volunteer. I’d follow up on the last incident with a formal email to the head reiterating your expectations that this volunteer has no contact with your child (alone or otherwise!) state that should you be made aware of any further incidences of this volunteer (don’t call her your mother keep it formal) trying to gain access to your child you will escalate the matter to the chair of governors.

This. Do not hesitate OP to use the strongest language.

Your mother sounds truly awful and you are a great woman to have survived her and put in boundaries.

She is utterly focused on what she wants.
I would reduce contact further and keep her as far from your child as possible.

You have clearly had a very damaging, abusive childhood and you owe your mother nothing at this point.

I’m amazed that the school let her start at all after you raised concerned with them.

Volunteering at the school seems really obsessive and bordering on stalking - trying to pull a child out of class is all kinds of wrong.

I agree - and it's obvious that the reason is to have contact with OP's DD as there must be hundreds of closer primary schools nearer to GM if she's doing a two hour round trip for this volunteer role.