To be utterly shocked by the penalty charge notices I have received from Waltham Forest?

[libertybonds]

I'm interested to know whether I am just a bad driver. I have received two penalty charge notices from Waltham Forest based on CCTV footage for the following 'offences.' I should mention that I don't know these roads and I was using satnav:

1. I approached a large junction. Painted on the road was an indication that you could go left or straight. I mistakenly thought the bus lane was the left turn lane so I moved there to turn. There were no buses around, and in the footage it's clear that I moved to this lane just as I approached the junction. I'm 100% sure that after I turned left I realised my error and moved to the correct lane. Again, no buses anywhere in sight.

1. I entered into a box junction behind a large vehicle. Traffic suddenly slowed and the tail end of my vehicle was in the junction. In the footage, you can actually see me move my vehicle into a lane that would take me in the wrong direction from where I wanted to go in order to move out of the box junction.

So, who is right? Me or Waltham Forest? Do I deserve to pay a combined £260 for these offences?

I had the bus lane thing too on a new road. I thought I was being directed to turn into a lane for my left turn, but turns out it was a bus lane. Really frustrating but I had to pay up.

Some of the replies here are a bit holier-than-thou. It is easy to make mistakes on unfamiliar roads in fast moving traffic.

[quote libertybonds]@godmum56 and yet I know for a fact that in NJ you would not have huge fines every time you made a mistake while adjusting to the different rules and conventions.[/quote]
But you're in WF now.

I am really careful when driving in a new area but the not going north on Hartington road Chiswick got me. Parked for work in the university of Westminster sports campus (never even knew it was on Hartington road as was being directed by someone who had Google maps) When I came to leave 10 hours later I must have turned the “wrong” way. Hounslow council have just rejected my appeal and sent me photos showing sign saying Permit Holders Only. (I thought they were parking notices)

£65 fine. Really annoyed as I am on UC and the days pay will just go on fines.

The box junction one is a basic if you've done a UK test

It isn’t. I passed mine 30 years ago. There was no mention in the Highway Code and I’ve never driven anywhere that has them.

So you chose to take a calculated risk and you lost. This still wasn't an accident.

I think you're right, but it's a bit pedantic.
I think the point being made is that in instances like this, there isn't really a wilful intent to break the law. It's just laziness. It's not so much a calculated risk as a blissful ignorance until the lights change then the realisation of their error.

A calculated risk is a real conscious effort to beat the system. I think for most, it's a lack of calculation that gets them into trouble (including myself, as we ALL switch off from time to time)

[quote libertybonds]@godmum56 and yet I know for a fact that in NJ you would not have huge fines every time you made a mistake while adjusting to the different rules and conventions.[/quote]
Unfortunately, other road users don’t know you’re getting used to driving in a new place. You could display P plates if you want to alert them that you are in effect a ‘new’ driver.

The idea is that the rules keep traffic running safely. An unexpected car in a bus lane could cause an accident, or lead to that driver changing lane at an inappropriate moment or in a way which endangers other drivers. Blocking the box stops traffic running freely and could cause an accident if a large vehicle is given right of way at lights, but the driver doesn’t have enough room to make their manoeuvre.

You’ve been unfortunate to get two penalties close together but it will make you a more careful driver, and with luck it won’t happen again. I’ve been driving for over 30 years, thousands of miles, all over the country, in towns and cities, rarely visiting the same place twice. I’ve once accidentally driven in a bus lane - but never again! - and I’ve never had a penalty for any offence. It can be done, and I’m sure you’ll be hyper vigilant now.

I've never taken a U.K. driving test and even I know about box junctions

Box junctions aren’t normally huge.

Next time if you see one. Stop completely at the beginning of it. If there’s room after the person in front has gone over it. Then it’s clear to go.

If the traffic suddenly slows. If you wait. It wouldn’t make a difference. Because you won’t get caught out.

@Blossomtoes

The box junction one is a basic if you've done a UK test

It isn’t. I passed mine 30 years ago. There was no mention in the Highway Code and I’ve never driven anywhere that has them.

they launched in 1967. 30 years ago is no excuse....also also drivers are responsible for keeping up with changes in law and road markings....Mind you i used to live in Wells in Somerset in the 70's. Drivers from far and wide used to flock there to get tested because there was a city wide one way system and no roundabouts!

I passed my test more than 30 years ago, and it was around then.
You may not have experienced one, but it's been in the highway code a lot longer than 30 years.

I didn't think I would be caught out by slow moving traffic and end up in the box junction. I didn't do it on purpose.

But lots do in Waltham Forest. If you live in the area, or drive in it regularly, you know that there is some atrocious driving going on. Watched a car trying to turn right at a junction you were not supposed to turn right at but they sat there and kept indicating even after 3 or 4 cars were blasting their horns continually at the car.

Also just wait for the temporary traffic lights issue. Cars wont stop when the lights turn red and two or three slip through but then can't make it clear to allow traffic to start coming the other way.

Good road design should mean that the layout is easily read in plenty of time by visitors and locals alike - so many roads have substandard markings, poorly displayed signs and require drivers to have intimate knowledge of the road layout.

[quote libertybonds]@godmum56 and yet I know for a fact that in NJ you would not have huge fines every time you made a mistake while adjusting to the different rules and conventions.[/quote]
And as is well documented, the system which allows individual traffic cops to use their discretion and judgement on whether or not to write you up is very open to bias and prejudice. London traffic cameras are tough on absolutely everyone. Harsher but overall much fairer, really.

[quote libertybonds]@Freckers both of these were accidental? I didn't think I would be caught out in the box thing. I sincerely didn't realise I was in a bus lane.

I'm a very experienced driver in another part of the world where slightly different traffic rules apply, and where there is no CCTV enforcement. Minor errors aren't fined like this unless someone causes an accident or a police officer sees you (though this probably wouldn't happen where there is a clearly unintentional mistake). Maybe it's the culture here - so strict and unforgiving.[/quote]
Why would you put down our culture? Because you got caught breaking the law of our roads?

Good road design should mean that the layout is easily read in plenty of time by visitors and locals alike - so many roads have substandard markings, poorly displayed signs and require drivers to have intimate knowledge of the road layout.

I tend to agree, but the UK road system has evolved in a hurry to cope for traffic. It's not a nicely planned grid system, it's the work (mess) of many years.

Putting things right for the modern age is a logistical and financial nightmare.

You only have to look at major motorways being made wider, only to be at full capacity again within a decade.

I get that it’s frustrating but if you break the rules of the road you pay a fine. You can’t blame an ‘unforgiving culture’ for having rules and enforcing them. Imagine how much time it would take for each person’s ‘reasons’ to be considered. My DH got a fine for driving in a bus lane by accident. It was 5am and the roads were completely empty (as shown in the photo they sent us) and he was bringing an elderly relative home from a night spent in A&E so tons of ‘mitigation’ - if mitigation was a thing. But it isn’t. We just paid up and grumbled a bit unreasonably about getting punished for a good deed (but didn’t post on Mumsnet).

It isn’t. I passed mine 30 years ago. There was no mention in the Highway Code and I’ve never driven anywhere that has them.

I also passed my test around 30 years ago, it was definitely in the Highway Code then and has been since around 1967 when they were introduced. I am very surprised you have never come across them.

blog.passmefast.co.uk/driving-tips/yellow-box-junction-rules/

HTH

@Blossomtoes

The box junction one is a basic if you've done a UK test

It isn’t. I passed mine 30 years ago. There was no mention in the Highway Code and I’ve never driven anywhere that has them.

I took my test some 27 years ago

I had my driving instructor ask me about them. Surprised you’ve never gone over one ever. I live in the middle of a forest that has them on a set of traffic lights.

That's unlucky to get 2 in quick succession OP but pay up quickly and they'll be halved.
Also find following SatNavs kind of turns off one's brain somewhat and stops people thinking about what they're doing.

@Blossomtoes

The box junction one is a basic if you've done a UK test

It isn’t. I passed mine 30 years ago. There was no mention in the Highway Code and I’ve never driven anywhere that has them.

You are wrong. They have been in operation and in the Highway code since at least 1968. Not disputing there are none local to you of course.

I didn't think I would be caught out by slow moving traffic and end up in the box junction. I didn't do it on purpose.

I also fundamentally disagree with the idea that not thinking and not doing something on purpose is an excuse. You weren’t paying attention and entered a box junction you weren’t sure you could exit. If someone isn’t paying attention and pulls out in front of an uncoming vehicle is that ok? What about if they hit the vehicle but everyone is ok? What if they hit it but injure someone? Where are you from drawing the ‘didn’t think and didn’t mean to’ line? Personally I think the line is rightly drawn any time you have demonstrably not driven with care and attention even if no harm or inconvenience was caused on that particular occasion.

libertybonds
@godmum56 and yet I know for a fact that in NJ you would not have huge fines every time you made a mistake while adjusting to the different rules and conventions."

"And as is well documented, the system which allows individual traffic cops to use their discretion and judgement on whether or not to write you up is very open to bias and prejudice. London traffic cameras are tough on absolutely everyone. Harsher but overall much fairer, really."

ha yes, not sure if they still do but all the local New Jersey police benevolent funds had car stickers and "courtesy cards" to keep in your wallet with your licence for a suggested annual donation. DH and i had no idea what they were for....they sent out please donate letters like charities. He asked at work about it and had it explained to him. We were there because he worked for a global brand and had been seconded out there on a project. The company were red hot on safety of all kinds and honest ethical behaviour and employees who made donations and used the car sticker were not viewed with approval!

You can’t blame an ‘unforgiving culture’ for having rules and enforcing them.

I think you can lay SOME blame at the culture. There is little doubt that the financial benefit of fines might sometimes be a motive above the actual safety.

A nation CAN elect to have a more forgiving culture and choose to allow police discretion (although that comes with other issues). Or, as we do, we can choose to be particularly punitive.

The Highway Code states: 'You must not enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear.'

The only exception is if you want to turn right, in that instance it allows you to enter the box and wait until there is a break in oncoming traffic to make your turn.