To be utterly shocked by the penalty charge notices I have received from Waltham Forest?

[libertybonds]

I'm interested to know whether I am just a bad driver. I have received two penalty charge notices from Waltham Forest based on CCTV footage for the following 'offences.' I should mention that I don't know these roads and I was using satnav:

1. I approached a large junction. Painted on the road was an indication that you could go left or straight. I mistakenly thought the bus lane was the left turn lane so I moved there to turn. There were no buses around, and in the footage it's clear that I moved to this lane just as I approached the junction. I'm 100% sure that after I turned left I realised my error and moved to the correct lane. Again, no buses anywhere in sight.

1. I entered into a box junction behind a large vehicle. Traffic suddenly slowed and the tail end of my vehicle was in the junction. In the footage, you can actually see me move my vehicle into a lane that would take me in the wrong direction from where I wanted to go in order to move out of the box junction.

So, who is right? Me or Waltham Forest? Do I deserve to pay a combined £260 for these offences?

@Bryonyshcmyony

Don't understand the Stockport photos — looks as though you hit the bus lane automatically if you stay in the right hand lane?

Yes you would but that is arrowed for straight ahead only on the approach so you'd be ignoring the markings.

Waltham Forest. Learn the rules of the road.

I think the whole system is set up for maximum profit, not with road safety in mind

I've no doubt it is, and "keeping the roads safer" comes in as a poor second

But at least it does keep them safer, so it's not all bad

It might be different when your driving that Stockport one, with how you're lined up, but the straight ahead arrow doesn't look very helpful — wouldn't a right arrow be clearer (with an exemption for buses)?

Kev's point it valid - if you stick in the left hand lane of the roundabout, you'll be forced into the left hand lane of the exit, and shouldn't then cross a solid white line.

It's still naff!

*is

I mean, looking at the angles on that photo, I'd say it's either left and right, or straight ahead and right.

@GolfEchoRomeoTangoIndia I get that, but I really would rather not even deal with going anywhere where I might be at risk of breaking the rules. The signs telling when the bus lanes were operational were not prominently displayed and I only knew about them because my instructor told me.

I actually do think I should get the highway code as a refresher, so thanks to all for that advice.

do you think it's fair for someone to be charged £130 every time they make a small error? I think that I may need to sell my car. I can't really afford to pay this every month

Are you planning on driving in bus lanes and stopping in boxes every month? If so, yes, you really should sell your car. Bus might be better for you.

I think sometimes these bus lanes and box junctions are designed to generate a certain number of fines, locals learn , but visitors are often confused .

I feel for you OP. It has happened to me many times. If it's a first offence you can appeal it and they may let you off. Also if you pay before 2 weeks is up, it will be half off, so will be a £60 fine not £120. If you appeal within the dates, it remains £60 until they make a decision.

It shouldn't be any surprise that fines in London are very high. The whole system is quite deliberately set up to make driving in London expensive and difficult. Ideally TfL and the LAs want as few people as possible driving in London. OP's musings on selling her car are precisely the intended result.

You CAN stop in a box junction if you are turning right. A lot of posters here should re-read the Highway Code and stop giving OP such a hard time.

Agree jessycake

OP within one post you said

both of these were accidental?

I didn't think I would be caught out in the box thing. I sincerely didn't realise I was in a bus lane

So the box thing wasn't accidental and the bus lane was due to you missing signage (unless you can demonstrate no signs in which case you can try to appeal).

[quote libertybonds]@yourestandingonmyneck obviously not! But frankly it seems difficult to avoid getting a PNC given how minor these offences are. What other terrible things might I accidentally do?[/quote]
Well in fairness you went 6 months without any mistakes you just happen to have made 2 close together

[quote libertybonds]@GolfEchoRomeoTangoIndia I get that, but I really would rather not even deal with going anywhere where I might be at risk of breaking the rules. The signs telling when the bus lanes were operational were not prominently displayed and I only knew about them because my instructor told me.

I actually do think I should get the highway code as a refresher, so thanks to all for that advice.[/quote]
oh ya think?

I've been where you are....we lived in New Jersey and I had to drive there. I didn't have to get a test but I took lessons and studied because its so different. Its no excuse for getting things wrong.

@Zhampagne

It shouldn't be any surprise that fines in London are very high. The whole system is quite deliberately set up to make driving in London expensive and difficult. Ideally TfL and the LAs want as few people as possible driving in London. OP's musings on selling her car are precisely the intended result.

This is true. And not a bad thing in my view (I'm a driver + asthmatic).

@C8H10N4O2 I didn't think I would be caught out by slow moving traffic and end up in the box junction. I didn't do it on purpose.

I think the Op is getting a hard time, I've traveled a few feet in a bus lane to turn at a junction before and I've ended up being a few feet in a box junction for 10 seconds or so before being able to move into another lane. I am a pretty good driver (17 years, no accidents) and I am considerate, we all sometimes make mistakes.
I find especially when driving around unfamiliar cities with quick decision making required!

130 quid is a deterrent.
You've been very unlucky twice in a day, but it can happen.

I think most people get with a fine or two in their time, and mistakes will happen with learner drivers, or just complacency (something almost all of us are guilty of).

The fine is meant to hurt. It will sting most people for months and curtail you. It'll certainly make you take more notice of signs etc.

I absolutely do sympathise in cities, where town planners really do go a little crazy at times. Usually through evolution, road layouts get messier and messier until they reach a point where a total overhaul / redesign is needed... at some cost!

[quote libertybonds]@Freckers both of these were accidental? I didn't think I would be caught out in the box thing. I sincerely didn't realise I was in a bus lane.

I'm a very experienced driver in another part of the world where slightly different traffic rules apply, and where there is no CCTV enforcement. Minor errors aren't fined like this unless someone causes an accident or a police officer sees you (though this probably wouldn't happen where there is a clearly unintentional mistake). Maybe it's the culture here - so strict and unforgiving.[/quote]
So what? You drive to the rules of the road of the country you are in.

@godmum56 and yet I know for a fact that in NJ you would not have huge fines every time you made a mistake while adjusting to the different rules and conventions.

I got a fine for crossing the line at a red light (to let an ambulance through!). I contacted them and they decided to let it go, although technically, I was still in the wrong.

Unfortunately you did commit the offences and the fines are steep to prevent you doing it again. I once paid to park in a bay and I got fined £75 because my bumper was overhanging the kerb by a couple of inches. They said I had only paid for the parking space within the lines and it wasn’t permitted to park over the kerb. Unfair perhaps? But I did position my car with the bumper over the kerb.