To be utterly shocked by the penalty charge notices I have received from Waltham Forest?

[libertybonds]

I'm interested to know whether I am just a bad driver. I have received two penalty charge notices from Waltham Forest based on CCTV footage for the following 'offences.' I should mention that I don't know these roads and I was using satnav:

1. I approached a large junction. Painted on the road was an indication that you could go left or straight. I mistakenly thought the bus lane was the left turn lane so I moved there to turn. There were no buses around, and in the footage it's clear that I moved to this lane just as I approached the junction. I'm 100% sure that after I turned left I realised my error and moved to the correct lane. Again, no buses anywhere in sight.

1. I entered into a box junction behind a large vehicle. Traffic suddenly slowed and the tail end of my vehicle was in the junction. In the footage, you can actually see me move my vehicle into a lane that would take me in the wrong direction from where I wanted to go in order to move out of the box junction.

So, who is right? Me or Waltham Forest? Do I deserve to pay a combined £260 for these offences?

@Blossomtoes

The box junction one is a basic if you've done a UK test

It isn’t. I passed mine 30 years ago. There was no mention in the Highway Code and I’ve never driven anywhere that has them.

Funny that - I did mine well OVER 30 years ago and was told about box junctions by my instructor, and I'm pretty sure they were in the Highway Code as they were introduced in 1967.

@walkoflifewoohoo

"That means the bus driver has to know, but the car driver is not afforded the same knowledge. The only way the bus driver can get into that lane is by crossing a solid white line or driving directly into the second lane"

Yes. What's the problem with that? The bus driver needs to know where her bus lane is, the car driver should know how to use a roundabout and should be exiting into the left hand lane.

Because there is no prior indication of a bus lane and there is supposed to be signage ahead of the actual bus lane, which there is not. Not all the traffic on this roundabout will be travelling from directly ahead, some will be from another approach more than half way around thus on the inside of the roundabout.

YANBU, it's mad to charge so much for minor errors.

I don't think as common other places to get penalties for small infractions even within the UK, they do make a nice few quid though for people. Just need to be super careful with box junctions and not proceed onto one at all until you have a car length beyond it, if the bus lane was not clearly marked you can try and have it overturned.

[quote libertybonds]@yourestandingonmyneck obviously not! But frankly it seems difficult to avoid getting a PNC given how minor these offences are. What other terrible things might I accidentally do?[/quote]
I understand why you think they are minor but they are still offences and if people were t fined for doing things like this then the traffic would be a disaster.

I am not a perfect driver - I was caught speeding a few years ago due to my own carelessness but I don't think I'd be caught out by a bus Lane or a box as both have to be very clearly marked and the rules are very clear cut.

@libertybonds I have not been able to read the whole thread but wanted to recommend the Pepipoo forums. You might want to double-check with the knowledgeable users there to see if there's anything that invalidates the charges or otherwise enables you to appeal.

I have sympathy for you OP.

They have fined you because they can over some petty technical infringements. Another way of raising taxes. Wankers.

There is very little lee way with bus lanes unfortunately. we were driving at 8.00 am on a Sunday morning. No other traffic on the road.
A road worker walked into the road in front of us, pulling a road barrier across the lane we were driving in. My husband moved into a bus lane to avoid him and moved out. It was the safe thing to do and we saw the video, but they still fined us for being temporarily in the bus lane, we didn't think the bus lane would be operating at that time on a Sunday (some are for set hours) but it was and we had to pay.

I got caught in a box junction in London last year in horrendous traffic - just the rear quarter of my car but it was a mistake so I paid the fine. I was cross with myself & yes my fault but an unfortunate set of circumstances

The icing on the cake of a shit drive out of London to get home to the Midlands, rush hour traffic, mopeds & scooters all over the bloody place on both sides, following the sat nav as I didn't know the way, route changed with traffic conditions, took me all through the charging zone that I'd avoided on the way there, cut up by a van so I couldn't get out of the box junction I'd assessed was fine to enter, couldn't log in to pay the congestion charge when I got back so did it the following day - a delay made it more expensive & then the bloody box junction fine a week later

Aargh!!

@VerticalHorizon

You can’t blame an ‘unforgiving culture’ for having rules and enforcing them.

I think you can lay SOME blame at the culture. There is little doubt that the financial benefit of fines might sometimes be a motive above the actual safety.

A nation CAN elect to have a more forgiving culture and choose to allow police discretion (although that comes with other issues). Or, as we do, we can choose to be particularly punitive.

Crikey this has all gone very philosophical over a couple of traffic fines.

Crikey this has all gone very philosophical over a couple of traffic fines

It’s not philosophical - it’s common sense.

Poor you, very easy done with bus Lane. It is a money grab

I've been caught by a bus lane... turned left off a side street into a main road behind a bus, the bus lane was 10 yards further down the road but because I had turned into the road after any signage prior to it, I ended up in the bus lane.

I felt annoyed but no way out of it. Took the fine on the chin.

I do question some of the motivation for fines (as opposed to points), but equally I'm grateful it wasn't points!

You've learned the hard way unfortunately. I mistakenly drove in a bus lane one morning and was stopped by a policeman doing checks. Got a big fine, despite him believing that I genuinely didn't realise. He quite rightly said that I SHOULD have realised, as I should have been paying attention to the signage. Can't argue with that.

And you should never, ever enter a yellow box junction unless your exit is clear. They're there to stop gridlock, so if people drive into them, even a bit, then it can cause the traffic to back up.

So yes, YABU to not want to pay fines for things you've done wrong. Maybe a one-off lesson with a driving instructor would help you with the British laws.

Box junctions are a bit annoying, there's one at Hammersmith that you can count the number of vehicles round BUT if anyone lets more than 2 vehicles in it scuppers the back of the box junction, and if you do not 'keep up with the traffic' having counted there is enough room for you and the 2 cars behind but if there is anyone quick off the mark from the other lane to muscle in those cars can take your slot as you cross, you just have to pay up or keep moving very very slowly in the hope you squeeze off the box without stopping. (I'd like to argue that one) , or you move lanes and muck somebody else up and go round again.

Might as well ponder all this whilst stuck in traffic!

@TheFrendo

I have sympathy for you OP.

They have fined you because they can over some petty technical infringements. Another way of raising taxes. Wankers.

Yeah sure, taxes. I assume you regard fines for assault as a tax on violence?

Roundabouts are a bit flawed. Give way to the right, but you can end up in a deadlock at mini roundabouts, then it is comedy gold deciding who to go.

@VerticalHorizon

I've been to this beauty!

I love that roundabout! It's a thing of beauty

If you repeatedly drive badly (through bus lanes), you'll just get fines. I don't think that is good. There is no cumulative tallying (points). So in that regard, I question the real motive of fines. If it is genuinely to improve driving standards and safety, then that must be reflected in bans.

Regarding the infamous Hemel Hempstead roundabout, I seem to recall they make you drive anti-clockwise which is whacky. Could be wrong on that but if you want to go from 6 o'clock, to 5 o'clock, you kinda end up going anti clockwise as I recall it.

Yeah sure, taxes. I assume you regard fines for assault as a tax on violence?

Do you really feel that driving on the wrong part of the road is equivalent to violence?

Weirdly normal I have been there too, and the reality was nowhere near as bad as the anticipation.

Yeah sure, taxes. I assume you regard fines for assault as a tax on violence?

No - just pointless in this case.

@VerticalHorizon

If you repeatedly drive badly (through bus lanes), you'll just get fines. I don't think that is good. There is no cumulative tallying (points). So in that regard, I question the real motive of fines. If it is genuinely to improve driving standards and safety, then that must be reflected in bans.

Bus lane & box junctions are primarily about traffic flow not safety.