To be utterly shocked by the penalty charge notices I have received from Waltham Forest?

[libertybonds]

I'm interested to know whether I am just a bad driver. I have received two penalty charge notices from Waltham Forest based on CCTV footage for the following 'offences.' I should mention that I don't know these roads and I was using satnav:

1. I approached a large junction. Painted on the road was an indication that you could go left or straight. I mistakenly thought the bus lane was the left turn lane so I moved there to turn. There were no buses around, and in the footage it's clear that I moved to this lane just as I approached the junction. I'm 100% sure that after I turned left I realised my error and moved to the correct lane. Again, no buses anywhere in sight.

1. I entered into a box junction behind a large vehicle. Traffic suddenly slowed and the tail end of my vehicle was in the junction. In the footage, you can actually see me move my vehicle into a lane that would take me in the wrong direction from where I wanted to go in order to move out of the box junction.

So, who is right? Me or Waltham Forest? Do I deserve to pay a combined £260 for these offences?

@VerticalHorizon

Regarding the infamous Hemel Hempstead roundabout, I seem to recall they make you drive anti-clockwise which is whacky. Could be wrong on that but if you want to go from 6 o'clock, to 5 o'clock, you kinda end up going anti clockwise as I recall it.

The mistake is to think of that as a roundabout; it isn't one. It's a circular section of road with six (iirc) small roundabouts along it.

@libertybonds you could possibly have cause to complain about the bus lane one if it really isn't well sign-posted/labelled but if you crossed a solid white line to enter the lane, then that should have been a clue. Most bus lanes (if not all?) are denoted by a solid white line and the rule is to never cross one.

If you'd be happy to share which junction it was someone either local may come along and advise, or we could look on Google.

I think you've probably realised you're bang to rights on the box junction one though. If you can't see in front of the vehicle in front of you, you should hang back before entering the box junction to ensure your route out of it is clear.

The penalties do seem pretty steep though, so I'd see if they reduce them by 50% for prompt payment at least. This would suggest it is - Waltham Forest website

I remember being in the car with my DP and he had a turn left after a bus lane. He nipped in to the bus lane about 5m before it ended and I remember thinking at the time "that was naughty" but didn't say anything because he'd have moaned I was criticizing his driving (he doth protest too much!). When I had a ranty phone call two weeks later because he'd had a fine I told him I'd seen him do it which bizarrely diffused his rage instantly as he realised he had nowhere to go with it.

Again, it seems a bit over the top to get a fine for going in it for a split second, or 5m, etc, but they have to (figuratively and literally) draw the line somewhere. Give people an inch and they'll take a mile, so they've got no option other than to be strict.

I would just be grateful it's a fine only and not points as well.

@bananapumpkin

I'm genuinely shocked at how many people appear to view these kind of penalties as positive. It is indicative of a really unpleasant culture. Thankfully there are still plenty of areas outside London that aren't so vindictive.

Ha ha ha, can you imagine what would happen to traffic in London if everyone sailed into a box junction when they felt like it, and wasn't fined?!

If it's you stuck in gridlock because of idiots not believing that box junction rules apply to them, I doubt you would think the fines were "vindictive".

I'm a very experienced driver in another part of the world where slightly different traffic rules apply.

This is why I don't drive in other countries, and never would until I properly understood all the road signs and rules. I certainly wouldn't drive however I wanted and then moan when I got fines.

OP, everyone gets fined if they commit motoring offences, not just you.

It's not about whether it's intentional or not, and since it seems that you realised your mistake and tried to correct it (too late to avoid a fine), it's unlikely to happen again as you know for next time that there are cameras there and you will get fined if you do it again.

It's annoying, but I would just brush up on the Highway Code and move on - it doesn't sound like you're such a terrible driver that you're best off giving up - you made a couple of mistakes that you can learn from, that's all.

The mistake is to think of that as a roundabout; it isn't one. It's a circular section of road with six (iirc) small roundabouts along it.

Yes indeed, that's precisely what it is - the blue signage for it helps to depict it as a form of roundabout (which it's not), but it's certainly a bit 'whoa!!' when you first meet it, and arguably, it's a little bat shit crazy!

@ThePlantsitter

Which is worse *@TastyTicklemore*, the fine or the horrific feeling of everyone HATING you because you're holding them up? I once accidentally blocked four lanes of traffic and a bus lane (very bad error) and just sat there saying 'fuck fuck fuck fuck' and not making eye contact with anyone around me until it cleared. I would honestly have paid 75 quid instantly if it meant it all went away.

Ha ha ha! The evil eyes make for a very uncomfortable minute or two....

The rules on yellow boxes are very clear , do not enter the box until you can see that you can clear the junction , obviously most people do what you did @libertybonds however taking that risk means you have to pay the fines if you get caught out . I doubt anyone intentionally sets out to break the rules of the road but that doesn’t mean you are exempt from the consequences .

I suppose the thing with bus lanes and box junctions is that they're monitored automatically. The cutoffs are set to match the road markings. They're unambiguous and impartially 'fair'.

DH is a good driver and managed to get caught by the bus lanes near a station when dropping off DD for something - she'd warned him there were bus lanes and that yes, they operated at 6am on a Sunday, but still, in an unfamiliar road layout he didn't see and process the signs soon enough I suppose. It happens. (Its a uni town quite notorious for its ability to extract fines from chauffeuring parents!).

Put it down to experience, OP.

@Peachee

I would love to know if all these people who say you deserve it have ever slightly gone over the speed limit or been with someone in a car that has! I can bet your bottom dollar they have!!

...and if we got caught we would deserve the consequences

Bus lane & box junctions are primarily about traffic flow not safety.

The two do have some correlation though, and even if that's disputed, the point remains, if it's consistent, then I think points are more appropriate than repeated fines, otherwise isn't the message 'we don't mind traffic issues, so long as the money keeps rolling in'?

@bananapumpkin

Yeah sure, taxes. I assume you regard fines for assault as a tax on violence?

Do you really feel that driving on the wrong part of the road is equivalent to violence?

Where did I say that? An opinion was voiced equating fines with taxes - do you really feel that getting a fine for breaking the law is the same as paying VAT or Income tax?

Almost everybody commits traffic offences. The vast majority do not get caught. However, plenty do (just from the sheer numbers).

I think most folks feel a bit peeved by the fine or points, but ultimately accept that rules ARE rules, and it's our own fault.

In a few exceptional circumstances, there might be mitigating factors, or if you can afford a decent barrister, some technicality that might save you, but for the large part, it's a fair cop.

DS got snapped THREE TIMES IN THE SAME DAY in bus lanes, twice in the same bloody lane 🙈.
£30 a pop for paying early (so £90), would’ve been £210 if delayed or contested.

@VerticalHorizon

Bus lane & box junctions are primarily about traffic flow not safety.

The two do have some correlation though, and even if that's disputed, the point remains, if it's consistent, then I think points are more appropriate than repeated fines, otherwise isn't the message 'we don't mind traffic issues, so long as the money keeps rolling in'?

but fines self fund the system and points do not

@DotBall

DS got snapped THREE TIMES IN THE SAME DAY in bus lanes, twice in the same bloody lane 🙈. £30 a pop for paying early (so £90), would’ve been £210 if delayed or contested.

Ouch. He won’t do that again!

@VerticalHorizon

Bus lane & box junctions are primarily about traffic flow not safety.

The two do have some correlation though, and even if that's disputed, the point remains, if it's consistent, then I think points are more appropriate than repeated fines, otherwise isn't the message 'we don't mind traffic issues, so long as the money keeps rolling in'?

So you'd issue points for parking infringements as well, presumably - some of those are arguably even worse for safety, if they block emergency vehicles.

The idea of the fines is to encourage people not to drive like twats. Like all fines they are entirely optional and predicated on driving properly.

Offences attracting points aren't all safety related in any case - it's a question of the seriousness.

I would have thought the fairly stiff fines OP has incurred would be a deterrent to most without the need for points, but I guess if people were regularly just paying up for driving like twats there should be some further sanction.

but fines self fund the system and points do not

I did say repeat offences.
I strongly suspect that the revenue generated from fines exceeds the cost. Regardless, in my opinion, repeat offences are not adequate addressed by fines alone.

I'm sorry you've had an expensive day, OP, but if the penalty charges are making you re-evaluate whether you actually need a car in London then they have totally fulfilled their purpose. We need as few people driving in London as possible.

@Peachee

I would love to know if all these people who say you deserve it have ever slightly gone over the speed limit or been with someone in a car that has! I can bet your bottom dollar they have!!

Yes I have @Peachee, and I was caught. Bang to rights.

I didn't come and moan about it on Mumsnet though

So you'd issue points for parking infringements as well, presumably - some of those are arguably even worse for safety, if they block emergency vehicles.

Absolutely I would.

Then your local footballer (for example) who doesn't give a toss can't just park where they like because they can afford the fine.

I'm not against a fine in the initial instance/s, but yes, in my opinion repeated offences over a given period should be escalated, and points would be a reasonable escalation I feel.

Could you ask if they may accept a monthly figure? Sometimes they can be flexible if they know your circumstances .Worth a try !

[quote libertybonds]@godmum56 and yet I know for a fact that in NJ you would not have huge fines every time you made a mistake while adjusting to the different rules and conventions.[/quote]
I've seen US court records where 4 misdemeanour traffic violations resulted in a fine of over $400. It depends a lot of circumstances around it, which court, whether they group things together under one thing or list out every single thing. There are a lot of variables.

They're meant to be a disincentive, and adjusting to new rules and conventions is rarely a legal defence. And really, you don't know if it's every time you made a "mistake", these are only the times you were caught and made aware of them.

It is not worth disputing unless the bus lane signage was unclear and you pay less the sooner you do so.

[quote libertybonds]@MotionActivatedDog do you think it's fair for someone to be charged £130 every time they make a small error? I think that I may need to sell my car. I can't really afford to pay this every month. I have had a car since December and I haven't had any issues until being slammed with these two fines in one go.[/quote]
I think it's extortionate. I live overseas and the amount for these kinds of charges would be about £30-£40 max.