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Original poster

Is the Methodist Church right to allow same sex marriage? And what does this mean for C of E and Catholic Church?

229 replies

Notfeelingsopeachyandkeennow · 30/06/2021 16:15

Personally, I am very pro this and think its about time!

I have just read that the Methodist Church is the 4th largest Christian denomination in Britain.

So - do you think that the Catholic Church and Church of England will inevitably follow suit at some point in time - even if that's still 50 years away?

And are you in favour of these changes?

OP posts:
Monsterjuice · 02/07/2021 01:48

@fallfallfall

follow the money. if any church needs more income they may look to include those groups of people that were previously excluded. the problem with same sex marriages is that children are generally not produced therefore decreased membership. this has nothing to do with "doctrine" or texts written by strangers after the fact. churches are a money making self serving "group" that conveys special standing to their members such as political, social or employment privileges. although cash poor i don't think the catholic (greek or roman) group is in such need as to include same sex formal weddings in the next 20 years.
For an organisation that says "its easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven" they really like their gold....
VerticalHorizon · 02/07/2021 01:51

I am not sure that funds from Government to the CoE exceed the return from them. I strongly suspect that is not the case but I would have to research.
Where it actually the case, it would beg the question why it hadn't ceased.

VerticalHorizon · 02/07/2021 01:51

*were - I'm tired!

peachyandkeen · 02/07/2021 01:58

[quote ClareBlue]@VerticalHorizon I didn't know about the non inclusion of adultery for grounds for same sex couples. Do you know if adultery has to be with opposite sex and that was why it was not included. If a married person had sex with a person of the same sex can their opposite sex person sue for adultery?
I would say that is quite an omission with regard to equality.
Basically, if you are in a same sex marriage and your partner shags around it is not grounds for divorcing them.
Doesn't seem right to me. Why does that have less effect on you than if you were not same sex?[/quote]
I'm with you - it is quite an omission with regard to equality.

Same-sex marriage is still not equal unfortunately. Another example of an inconsistency / inequality, is that a married heterosexual man can choose to annul his marriage if it materialises that his wife is pregnant (with someone else's baby) and he did not know this at the point of marriage. This option does not apply to same-sex couples. So if a woman wants to leave her wife because it turns out she's pregnant with someone else's child - simply not an option. Also unequal just in terms of gender too I'd say as women can't annul on these grounds full-stop.

Ok - not many people seek annulments because most will get a divorce instead, and this is kind of a niche reason to seek an annulment but the point still stands - equal it is not.

Its a mess.

Monsterjuice · 02/07/2021 02:44

You want women to have the right to annul their marriage because their husband is pregnant with another man's baby at the time of the wedding?

Monsterjuice · 02/07/2021 02:46

Although I do think thw thinking wasbt that same sex marriage lacks those things.

They're things that shouldn't exist but it's hard to change the existing marriage laws butte new ones can be made on best practice

mathanxiety · 02/07/2021 02:49

If you think the Catholic Church would follow suit, you must not know much about the Catholic Church.

peachyandkeen · 02/07/2021 03:06

@Monsterjuice

You want women to have the right to annul their marriage because their husband is pregnant with another man's baby at the time of the wedding?
No - evidently not. Hmm

Clearly in the alternative scenario it would be that her husband has impregnated another woman. But as it stands there are now grounds for that.

peachyandkeen · 02/07/2021 03:08

@mathanxiety

If you think the Catholic Church would follow suit, you must not know much about the Catholic Church.
A very strong, nuanced and persuasive point. Thank you for your contribution Smile
peachyandkeen · 02/07/2021 03:08

I agree with you.

Monsterjuice · 02/07/2021 03:43

@VerticalHorizon

I am not sure that funds from Government to the CoE exceed the return from them. I strongly suspect that is not the case but I would have to research. Where it actually the case, it would beg the question why it hadn't ceased.
Coe is a charity so tax exempt iirc
Monsterjuice · 02/07/2021 03:45

"No - evidently not. hmm

Clearly in the alternative scenario it would be that her husband has impregnated another woman. But as it stands there are now grounds for that."

That wouldn't be the reverse though, as the woman wouldn't wouldn't in anyway financially tied to the child.

The husband of the pregnant woman would be though

Radio4ordie · 02/07/2021 07:12

@UsedUpUsername

My DM a practicing Christian plus her sisters and friends voted yes, they don't believe homosexuality or abortion is a sin, they know it is a an individual right, they have neighbours members of the community in same sex relationships. Minds have grown

Serious, non-goady question. Why are they even Christian? These are kind of major tenets of their faith. As you wrote, haven’t their minds grown beyond this?

Isn’t it just a social club at this point?

(I’ve left the church personally, for context)

It’s never been a major tenant of being a Christian. Are you familiar with the creed? That’s basically the major aspects of the faith. Matters of morality have changed significantly over the years. I personally find it totally congruent with my faith to accept gay marriage whilst continuing to condemn any sexual behaviour that makes light of another person, misuses them or harms them.
VerticalHorizon · 02/07/2021 08:02

I think its a little disingenuous the argue that its never been a major tenet of Christianity, particularly in the RC Church where sexual practice is a huge issue and always has been.

It is only in recent decades where churches have tried to play down the negativity towards gay people, vs that of gay attraction and sexual activity.
Why do you think there is still so much debate around the existence of gay clergy?

We have to be utterly honest here and admit that the church is slowly moving towards accepting homosexuality, but it has a long way to go, just as society itself has. The church is lagging however, rather than leading.

Bryonyshcmyony · 02/07/2021 08:05

I think it's brilliant.

Can't see the Catholic Church or Islam or Judaism ever embracing it though.

VerticalHorizon · 02/07/2021 08:23

When we say major tenets, I think we are talking about two different things.
There are formal Tenets that most religions use to explain their absolute core principles. These tend to be focused around the omnipotence of a creator and how we must worship that creator (God), and how we become closer to righteousness with that God.

But there are other tenets such as the sanctity of marriage, our behaviour, our abstinence from certain practices or food etc (depending on religion or denomination).
Sexual behaviour falls under this. And this is where, for centuries, homosexuality has been an issue and remains so, evidently.
It has been so significant, people have (and still do) die for it.

wed8pril · 04/07/2021 20:43

They C of E are the state religion, they shouldn't get to discriminate.

ClareBlue · 04/07/2021 21:36

@Monsterjuice

"No - evidently not. hmm

Clearly in the alternative scenario it would be that her husband has impregnated another woman. But as it stands there are now grounds for that."

That wouldn't be the reverse though, as the woman wouldn't wouldn't in anyway financially tied to the child.

The husband of the pregnant woman would be though

But if you found out your husband had a baby on the way with another women then he will have to support the baby. So it does impact on the wife and any future children they have financially, so surely she should have the right to anul under these conditions if he has the right if she was pregnant by another man.
TheWelshposter · 04/07/2021 21:53

Hopefully one day these outdated amd judgemental organised religions will lose so many followers they will die out. Unfortunately it's unlikely though Sad

wed8pril · 05/07/2021 11:26

@TheWelshposter

Hopefully one day these outdated amd judgemental organised religions will lose so many followers they will die out. Unfortunately it's unlikely though Sad
We can only hope.
VerticalHorizon · 05/07/2021 19:49

Given most of them have lasted centuries and always been judgmental, there's a far change they might manage to survive a little while longer!

rosalindwi · 05/07/2021 21:00

@wed8pril if CoE is the state religion then maybe the state should follow the religion rather than the religion bend to fit the state which seems to happen.

VerticalHorizon · 05/07/2021 21:37

Quite @ Rosalindwi

Ponoka7 · 05/07/2021 21:47

@Monsterjuice
"You want women to have the right to annul their marriage because their husband is pregnant with another man's baby at the time of the wedding?"

That's possible these days. Transmen can be pregnant.

I'd rather religion died out. But it makes what they've subjected women and children to, for centuries, even more tragic, if they further pick and choose what bits of the Bible to follow. How they could justify no women priests would be interesting.

doubleshotespresso · 05/07/2021 21:52

@Muminabun

The church considers marriage to be between a man and a woman for the purposes of having and raising children. To be fair if you don’t believe in Catholicism why would you want a Catholic wedding. There is a debate to be had about the rights of gay people to get married but also the rights of faiths to exercise religious freedom.
Would this comment work equally with Boris Johnson I wonder? 🧐