Is the Methodist Church right to allow same sex marriage? And what does this mean for C of E and Catholic Church?

[Notfeelingsopeachyandkeennow]

Personally, I am very pro this and think its about time!

I have just read that the Methodist Church is the 4th largest Christian denomination in Britain.

So - do you think that the Catholic Church and Church of England will inevitably follow suit at some point in time - even if that's still 50 years away?

And are you in favour of these changes?

A lot of my friends are in their 20s and some early 30s. Most traditional Catholics who prefer the latin mass. Nearly all are or are planning to homeschool and older friends in late 30s and 40s have between 5 and 9 children! Abortion is considered evil. Contraception nat natural family planning is not accepted. There is no way they would accept homosexual marriage as marriage. To Catholics, the family (in a very traditional sense) is the heart of everything and when that is destroyed, society is destroyed.

I don't believe it's true that all other Christian denominations have been ordaining closeted gay priests. In fact, I know it's not true.

If the candidates for ordination were concealing their sexual orientation, how would the denomination know? And how do you know that this isn't true?

@MissConductUS

I don't believe it's true that all other Christian denominations have been ordaining closeted gay priests. In fact, I know it's not true.

If the candidates for ordination were concealing their sexual orientation, how would the denomination know? And how do you know that this isn't true?

Because not all other denominations have priests, and and you stated you found it hypocritical, which implies awareness of ordaining homosexuals. It can't be hypocritical if they do so without being aware.

As I said, that is a far cry from accepting that lots of gay priests HAVE been ordained. Of course they have, but not 'officially' in the full knowledge of the Church.

The state recognises equality for same sex marriage. That is all that matters.
Nobody forces anyone to be a member of a religious club. But if you are a member then why do you want to change the belief system. The Catholic church belief system is that marriage is between a man and women for the purpose of bringing up children. So if you don't believe that is what marriage is, then don't have a Catholic wedding.

What happens in the event that a man and a woman marry in the Catholic Church, and then one of them transitions?

Would they still be welcomed at their local church do you think? Even if grudgingly?

@ClareBlue

The state recognises equality for same sex marriage. That is all that matters. Nobody forces anyone to be a member of a religious club. But if you are a member then why do you want to change the belief system. The Catholic church belief system is that marriage is between a man and women for the purpose of bringing up children. So if you don't believe that is what marriage is, then don't have a Catholic wedding.

I think it's a bit more complicated than that for anybody who is religious. The believe in God of some description. They want to carry out God's will, but also recognise their own sexuality (usually).

When the two are opposed, it's going to create a lot of emotional turmoil.
If they aren't opposed (between them and what they believe God tells them), then the opposition might come from their Denomination. In which case, there's a conflict between them and their Denomination. That doesn't mean to say they can easily abandon it.

Imagine you had three children that you loved... your God, your sexuality and your Church...
Your God rarely gave you problems, but was sometimes difficult to understand.
Your Sexuality was as loved just as much as God, but not as loved by others. Sometimes other would tell you this child should be cast out.
Your Church was the child you could turn to when you needed help and equally loved but sometimes this child would disagree with you.

You love all three, and cannot really give any of them up, but none of it works perfectly, including yourself.

I think this is how it is for many 'believers'.

@peachyandkeen

What happens in the event that a man and a woman marry in the Catholic Church, and then one of them transitions?

Would they still be welcomed at their local church do you think? Even if grudgingly?

transitions to another religion or... to another gender?

In the Catholic Church, if you transitioned to another gender, kettles would start to rattle and boil of their own accord, and 4 riders of the apocalypse would turn up on pink ponies.

@PurBal

The theological definition of marriage differs from the secular definition of marriage. That's the biggest hurdle for the church to overcome. But given 99% of people don't know that and the term marriage is used interchangeably in Christian and secular settings, does it matter?

Yes, but that is more society issue than the churches. A church wedding creates no legal rights or even has a legal status. The rights of what we generally call marriage are through statutory provisions and in UK and Ireland do not differentiate these rights between the sex of the people entering into the contract. This is, of course, how it should be because the state should not differentiate legal rights based on sex. But the church wedding ceronmy is just that, a public affirmation of you partnership within a group of people who believe the same things. If that belief is that it should be between a man and a women then that is their belief. Nothing more. As long as that belief is not used to incite hatred then so what. The beliefs of the churches are only relevant to those who want to be a member. The test of us should respect that but not give it any head space.

I've always found it rather perverse that gay people in this country have to:
put up with subsiding the church through their tax money (it's a charity)

Put up with unelected religious members of government (the Lord spiritual)

And accept that this is the same organisation that publishes a manifesto that says they should be murdered, something which you would not be allowed to print without the protection of unelected lords giving them an exception.

Either the church is separate from the state, or should receive no aid and have no representation in government and can ban gays as a private members club.

Or its a part of the state recognised its on the money, the monarch and the house of Lords and as such must treat all citizens equally

Everyone has the right to get married.

If you want the blessing of a particular church then you need to follow their rules. If you object to their rules then why would you want their blessing?

I think it will be a very long time before the catholic church does same sex marriages.

In the UK, The Queen is the head of the Church of England, and our government serves at her pleasure. Church and State are historically very intertwined, although these days it's mostly notionally, but the CofE still hold a hell of a lot of sway and has a great deal of wealth.

Specific provisions and exemptions for religion exist within our laws, so in some regards, certain laws are set aside for religion, which some may find questionable.

Same sex marriages right now do not have 100% parity with opposite sex marriages - for instance, adultery is not grounds for divorce in same sex marriages, but is for opposite sex. Grounds for divorce based on non consummation are also not available to same sex marriages.

@VerticalHorizon. Yes, I was oversimplifying it and deep held beliefs that are out of kilter with personal situations or organised religion cause plenty of turmoil for people. But you still have to accept that if a club has certain rules to be a member and you can not abide by them for what ever reason then you either have to leave, try and change the rules or pretend you haven't broken them.
Or reconcile why you have broken them. But you might not find everyone accepts any of these actions, especially thise who abide by the rules in the club. Or say they do.

*transitions to another religion or... to another gender?

In the Catholic Church, if you transitioned to another gender, kettles would start to rattle and boil of their own accord, and 4 riders of the apocalypse would turn up on pink ponies.*

Ok this made me laugh out loud. Yes, I meant transition to another gender. In theory - they wouldn't be able to do anything about it right? If two people were married in that Church and attend that Church... can they really say 'oh, no, sorry - you can't come here anymore'?

[quote ClareBlue]@VerticalHorizon. Yes, I was oversimplifying it and deep held beliefs that are out of kilter with personal situations or organised religion cause plenty of turmoil for people. But you still have to accept that if a club has certain rules to be a member and you can not abide by them for what ever reason then you either have to leave, try and change the rules or pretend you haven't broken them.
Or reconcile why you have broken them. But you might not find everyone accepts any of these actions, especially thise who abide by the rules in the club. Or say they do.[/quote]
So why should they have a position in government?

[quote ClareBlue]@VerticalHorizon. Yes, I was oversimplifying it and deep held beliefs that are out of kilter with personal situations or organised religion cause plenty of turmoil for people. But you still have to accept that if a club has certain rules to be a member and you can not abide by them for what ever reason then you either have to leave, try and change the rules or pretend you haven't broken them.
Or reconcile why you have broken them. But you might not find everyone accepts any of these actions, especially thise who abide by the rules in the club. Or say they do.[/quote]
Or simply press delete on the club?

@peachyandkeen

*transitions to another religion or... to another gender?

In the Catholic Church, if you transitioned to another gender, kettles would start to rattle and boil of their own accord, and 4 riders of the apocalypse would turn up on pink ponies.*

Ok this made me laugh out loud. Yes, I meant transition to another gender. In theory - they wouldn't be able to do anything about it right? If two people were married in that Church and attend that Church... can they really say 'oh, no, sorry - you can't come here anymore'?

I don't know.

I strongly suspect most Catholic Churches would not outright condemn them, and certainly not 'throw them out', but there would be a lot of whispering and discomfort about how to handle it.

The Church (not just RC) has in my opinion been quite duplicitous in how it condemns homosexuality. At one time, it was very much 'Sinner! Sinner!', but now it's tried to differentiate the sinful nature of the desire to have homosexual relations and that of the people that have those desires. i.e. 'we aren't condemning the people themselves, just that horrible disgusting gay sex thing they do'. In the Church's mind that's bought them a bit of kudos for accepting gay people in their churches (oh how good of them), but still poo poo homosexuality under their breath.

Some good points around the untangling of the division between state and church and if state funding should be conditional on equality in, for example, marriage.
Religious charities also provide services and receive support from the state.
In Ireland the land the new maternity hospital is being built on is owned by the Catholic Church. They will not hand or sell the land to the state but say they have no intention of influencing governance of the new hospital.
Apart from the optics of having any involvement of an organisation that has treated mother's so badly in the past in the new maternity hospital, you have got to wonder why. The current hospital is run under a 'Catholic Ethos' and has strong Catholic Governance. A former Master of the Hospital says it will be a disaster for women if the state doesn't get ownership, his sister in law who is current head of clinical practice, says a structure can be formed that takes out Catholic influence and there will be no issues.
So maybe it isn't just a question of letting churches get on with it, maybe they should be more accountable with their beliefs.

Anyway, I bet their Christmas dinners are fun.

votes.parliament.uk/Votes/Lords/Division/1754

No surprise the group of Lords trying to block gay marriage is dominated by the bishops

• and tories

Sorry posted too sson

There are hundred of church schools up and down the UK funded massively by the Church, with many of the actual properties owned by the church too. The cost implication of turning them all into state schools would be enormous and they'd either have to buy those schools, or build new ones.

It will take decades, to make a clean break and I doubt the Queen nor Government have the stomach for that.

@Monsterjuice

votes.parliament.uk/Votes/Lords/Division/1754

No surprise the group of Lords trying to block gay marriage is dominated by the bishops

Now don't be bashing the bishops! that's frown upon too.

@VerticalHorizon

There are hundred of church schools up and down the UK funded massively by the Church, with many of the actual properties owned by the church too. The cost implication of turning them all into state schools would be enormous and they'd either have to buy those schools, or build new ones.

It will take decades, to make a clean break and I doubt the Queen nor Government have the stomach for that.

Just declare the church a business. The schools will go under naturally without the massive taxpayer funded subsidy?

follow the money. if any church needs more income they may look to include those groups of people that were previously excluded.
the problem with same sex marriages is that children are generally not produced therefore decreased membership.
this has nothing to do with "doctrine" or texts written by strangers after the fact.
churches are a money making self serving "group" that conveys special standing to their members such as political, social or employment privileges.
although cash poor i don't think the catholic (greek or roman) group is in such need as to include same sex formal weddings in the next 20 years.

@VerticalHorizon - "Now don't be bashing the bishops! that's frown upon too."

3/10.

@VerticalHorizon I didn't know about the non inclusion of adultery for grounds for same sex couples. Do you know if adultery has to be with opposite sex and that was why it was not included. If a married person had sex with a person of the same sex can their opposite sex person sue for adultery?
I would say that is quite an omission with regard to equality.
Basically, if you are in a same sex marriage and your partner shags around it is not grounds for divorcing them.
Doesn't seem right to me. Why does that have less effect on you than if you were not same sex?