Is the Methodist Church right to allow same sex marriage? And what does this mean for C of E and Catholic Church?

[Notfeelingsopeachyandkeennow]

Personally, I am very pro this and think its about time!

I have just read that the Methodist Church is the 4th largest Christian denomination in Britain.

So - do you think that the Catholic Church and Church of England will inevitably follow suit at some point in time - even if that's still 50 years away?

And are you in favour of these changes?

@VeryQuaintIrene

Some of the Anglican communion like the Episcopalians are already OK with same-sex marriagem, so I reckon it's just a matter of time. At least, I hope so.

The Episcopal Church in the US, which is part of the Anglican Communion, voted in 2015 to allow same sex marriage and to change the marriage liturgy to reflect that.

I am a practicing Anglican and a PCC member at my local church. I'm strongly in support of the decision taken by the Methodist Church, but unfortunately I can't see the C of E changing any time soon.

There is a "review" for want of a better word going on at the moment called "Living in Life and Faith", however the sub-title is "Christian teaching and learning about identity, sexuality, relationships and marriage" - the word order there is very telling!

I would not say homosexuality was condemned - nobody stood in a pulpit proclaiming it to be the work of the devil, but it wasn't embraced either. As with most churches, things are hush hush, or passively frowned upon

I think that was the case in much of society until fairly recently, not just church.

I remember leaving church one Sunday after a sermon about accepting homosexuality. One elderly man spoke to me later when we were having coffee and I'll never forget it. He said "Do you honestly accept people being gay?" and I said yes, it doesn't bother me at all. He said he was envious of me and he wanted to feel the same, but his whole life everyone had told him it was terribly wrong. Family, friends, church, school, the law, workmates, everyone. People could be and were jailed within his lifetime, being gay was seen as a depraved thing. And now in his 80s he was being told it was actually okay and he was finding it really hard to change his viewpoint. I felt for him. That conversation has made me more patient with people who are slow to accept change. When you've been conditioned one way all your life it is hard to change as quickly as society is changing around you. So long as there is a willingness and an open-mindedness around it I am happy to give people time (maybe I would be less patient if I was gay).

@Knitwit99

I would not say homosexuality was condemned - nobody stood in a pulpit proclaiming it to be the work of the devil, but it wasn't embraced either. As with most churches, things are hush hush, or passively frowned upon

I think that was the case in much of society until fairly recently, not just church.

I remember leaving church one Sunday after a sermon about accepting homosexuality. One elderly man spoke to me later when we were having coffee and I'll never forget it. He said "Do you honestly accept people being gay?" and I said yes, it doesn't bother me at all. He said he was envious of me and he wanted to feel the same, but his whole life everyone had told him it was terribly wrong. Family, friends, church, school, the law, workmates, everyone. People could be and were jailed within his lifetime, being gay was seen as a depraved thing. And now in his 80s he was being told it was actually okay and he was finding it really hard to change his viewpoint. I felt for him. That conversation has made me more patient with people who are slow to accept change. When you've been conditioned one way all your life it is hard to change as quickly as society is changing around you. So long as there is a willingness and an open-mindedness around it I am happy to give people time (maybe I would be less patient if I was gay).

Absolutely. It was illegal until 1967, and even then, it discriminated on age (arguably for good reasons, but still).

I think this is where the church is still at. More and more people have come to terms with it (secular or otherwise), but for churchgoers, it's more difficult, because of all the past teachings - either explicit condemnation, or implied.

Again, the explicit condemnation was never 'they'll all burn in hell!', but it was clear 'man shall not sleep with man' etc, and that was enough to spell it out as 'wrong'. There was no real discussion of the interpretation of that, at least not until the late 80;s when people felt a need to start looking at how to get out around that interpretation.

For me, the Church is still playing that game, perhaps not purposely, but subliminally... how can we reinterpret it in a way what works, without making our previous interpretation look wrong?

Funny how all these religious 'rules' seem to keep updating alongside public opinion.

@NiceGerbil

C of E yes will follow but no idea on timescale

RC no way whatsoever

It would need an act of parliament. The CofE is forbidden by law from marrying same sex couples. If the CofE pushed for it no doubt parliament would oblige but the circumstances are very different from the Methodists.

A quick glance at wikipedia on the 2013 Act allowing same sex marriages:

"the legislation will not affect the Canon law of the Church of England or the Church in Wales, i.e., unless Canon law and the same-sex marriage legislation are changed in future, both churches will be legally barred from performing same-sex marriages"

I am CofE and very pro-relaxation of the rules - I think like women priests it would have to be managed in stages and with clergy who object not having to perform the ceremonies. It will be a long while coming even to that stage though I think. A shame - love is love and all that. It is inevitably that churches will move slowly though. Someone once said to me the RC church thinks in millennia; the CofE and CofW are nippy by comparison.

C of E is desperate and dying. Will do whatever to try and remain 'popular' and 'relevant'. Evangelicals and Catholics will not accept same sex unions as marriage. The problem is that many gay catholic men realise that they cannot marry and face a life of celibacy so end up becoming priests. They then end up in a seminary full of single gay men. This causes issues.

Also, Catholics believe there is one true church and that other denominations have deviated and are not the real church as set up by Jesus.

Hence why they don't really care what happens in those churches. Eg someone married in a Catholic Church who wants to re marry probably can't but if someone has been divorced who was previously been married in an Anglican Church then that's fine as the marriage is considered invalid anyway!

The RC Church will not change its views on this or anything else major.

The insistence that its priests must be male and celibate is already an existential threat but they aren't for turning. They will not be swayed into endorsing same sex marriage.

But the church doesn't hate homosexuality. It "loves the sinner hates the sin". Same applies to unmarried sex and divorce.

You get some Christians who are homophobic. It's not a very Christian attitude IME.

I'm Catholic but I can't believe God would object to human connection: married or unmarried, gay or straight. I think He does not want us to use each other and treat each other badly.

The bible is against homosexuality and a whole lot of other things which are allowed now. It's some thoughts from an ancient society. Its not moved with the times. Still a good book. You just have to be careful what you take from it.

Catholicism isn't up for anything as long as it's heterosexual also! The church expects all members, both single and married to be chaste in their relationships. Note, chastity is NOT the same as celibacy

I thought the Anglican Church already was ok with it!
I don’t really know why, maybe I was giving them more credit than they’re due

I think the tide is beginning to turn in the CoE, but (like anything there) it’ll be slow. I don’t see the Catholic Church permitting it in my lifetime

In fairness to the Methodist, they've been quite progressive, but I'm not letting them off the hook!

You can read some of the Methodist workgroups on sexuality from the mid 90s where they are quite open about some of their members being in favour of gay marriage, but also some of them still considering it 'disgusting and immoral' (their words). I think that's very much an accurate reflection of those times, and may still be the case now (but I expect it's far more in favour than ever before).

The go into some detail about how they interpret Paul's condemnation of homosexuality. One such interpretation was that Paul actually meant men having sex with boys, not two consenting adults - a more favourable interpretation than outright condemnation of two gay adults.
(They also offered the less favourable interpretations too).

But here, we already see how the church tries to adapt interpretations. Nothing wrong with that, but it only tends to happen in a reactive manner - reacting to societal changes. It's rarely (if ever) a proactive and progressive interpretation of its own volition.

The church is rather stuck between a rock and a hard place with this. They either tell their congregation to forget the years of brainwashing that homosexuality is a sin and that that particular part of the Bible can now be ignored, or they double down and stick with their view that being gay is wrong. I don't see how they can retain any credibility as to the absolute authority of the word of God if they openly say that they've now changed their mind and decided not to be homophobic however it's absolutely still true that God wants you to continue to do x,y and z. Doubling down and continuing to preach homophobia and condemnation of gay people (either overtly or with the continuation of banning gay marriages) will see their congregations, influence and wealth fade to nothing. Given that the church only thrived by literally putting the fear of God into people, it's going to be difficult for them to back down and say that they, as an institution, now disbelieve the word of God as written in the Bible.
There is an old church near me which is facing financial ruin and is appealing to everyone in the locality to help to save it as the collection from the congregation isn't enough. I was really pissed off to be honest. I want to ask them if they'd happily take the money of divorced and gay people with one hand while stopping them from being fully welcomed into their church with the other. Ultimately, if the church doesn't provide something that people want it won't survive. How they go about trying to retain authority whilst saying that parts of the Bible can be ignored is a matter for them. If only they could have been more like Jesus apparently was in the first place. Ah well, hopefully they will live and learn. Or not and fade out.

Have a read of this, it's horrific:

www.methodistevangelicals.org.uk/Articles/523563/Homosexual_people_and.aspx

An excerpt:

*Our response to those who openly follow a homosexual lifestyle is more challenging. God shows unconditional love for humanity and we should reflect that; not a sentimental love, which permits people to do whatever they want, but a tough love which challenges destructive behaviour. How then do we apply the principle of love to people whose lives appear to deny some biblical injunctions? To condemn them as sinners and have nothing to do with them will not be helpful. Disapproval of other people’s actions should never cause social withdrawal or rejection, hatred, and persecution – where would be the love in that? A condemnatory attitude on our part can lead to secrecy in those who have not yet declared their sexuality, with the risk of the threat of blackmail. I wonder what we are about when our attitude causes some honest and sincere Christians who hold a different view about the authority of the Bible from ours to hide behind lies about their sexuality and their sexual practices? We cannot condone their practices but we can show respect even when we fundamentally disagree.
It is hard for us to accept that practising homosexual people and their heterosexual supporters sincerely believe that they are right. Some practising gay men and lesbian women I have talked with genuinely believe that their relationship with their long-term partner is neither destructive nor unhelpful. Though we view a long-term loving relationship between two people of the same sex as outside God’s plan for human relationships, we will surely see it as less damaging than promiscuity or an abusive relationship of any kind.

Gay and lesbian rights groups, both within and outside the church, campaign vocally for the acceptance of homosexuality as a valid lifestyle. This should be firmly and robustly challenged, as it contravenes both biblical teaching and Methodist standards.*

@VerticalHorizon

Have a read of this, it's horrific:

www.methodistevangelicals.org.uk/Articles/523563/Homosexual_people_and.aspx

An excerpt:

*Our response to those who openly follow a homosexual lifestyle is more challenging. God shows unconditional love for humanity and we should reflect that; not a sentimental love, which permits people to do whatever they want, but a tough love which challenges destructive behaviour. How then do we apply the principle of love to people whose lives appear to deny some biblical injunctions? To condemn them as sinners and have nothing to do with them will not be helpful. Disapproval of other people’s actions should never cause social withdrawal or rejection, hatred, and persecution – where would be the love in that? A condemnatory attitude on our part can lead to secrecy in those who have not yet declared their sexuality, with the risk of the threat of blackmail. I wonder what we are about when our attitude causes some honest and sincere Christians who hold a different view about the authority of the Bible from ours to hide behind lies about their sexuality and their sexual practices? We cannot condone their practices but we can show respect even when we fundamentally disagree.
It is hard for us to accept that practising homosexual people and their heterosexual supporters sincerely believe that they are right. Some practising gay men and lesbian women I have talked with genuinely believe that their relationship with their long-term partner is neither destructive nor unhelpful. Though we view a long-term loving relationship between two people of the same sex as outside God’s plan for human relationships, we will surely see it as less damaging than promiscuity or an abusive relationship of any kind.

Gay and lesbian rights groups, both within and outside the church, campaign vocally for the acceptance of homosexuality as a valid lifestyle. This should be firmly and robustly challenged, as it contravenes both biblical teaching and Methodist standards.*

When was this written?

Seemingly 2004 - but could be wrong on that.

They are partnered with Cliff College (a pretty well known Derbyshire bible study college - I know a few folks who went there, and The Methodist Church).

If ever the Church were openly to condone the activities of practising gay and lesbian people, those who have opted for celibacy as the appropriate way of life would feel profoundly betrayed. In addition, our relations with other religions, particularly Islam and Judaism, would be greatly damaged.

Heavens above

They need to move with the times, a lot of Christian' people have the vote for gay marriage and abortion highlighted the change.
My DM a practicing Christian plus her sisters and friends voted yes, they don't believe homosexuality or abortion is a sin, they know it is a an individual right, they have neighbours members of the community in same sex relationships. Minds have grown.
Love is love, the church needs change.

And this:

methodistevangelicals.org.uk/Groups/327599/Marriage_and_Relationships.aspx

This is currently 'live' on their website under Resources for marriage and relationships, which concludes homosexuality is wrong.

If ever the Church were openly to condone the activities of practising gay and lesbian people, those who have opted for celibacy as the appropriate way of life would feel profoundly betrayed

Still true. If you've been told that the way to be faithful is to renounce your sexual attraction to people of the same sex and embrace celibacy, and have lived like that for many years, trusting that you were doing what God wants of you, even though it's been hard, of course you're going to feel that's thrown back in your face when the church suddenly says, oh sorry, we got that wrong.

My DM a practicing Christian plus her sisters and friends voted yes, they don't believe homosexuality or abortion is a sin, they know it is a an individual right, they have neighbours members of the community in same sex relationships. Minds have grown

Serious, non-goady question. Why are they even Christian? These are kind of major tenets of their faith. As you wrote, haven’t their minds grown beyond this?

Isn’t it just a social club at this point?

(I’ve left the church personally, for context)

I think most Christians cut their own deal with God. They get support and community from their own church (usually), but they do not always agree with everything The Church does. There will be differences of opinion even amongst close Christian friends.

Issues such as sexuality though - they can be deal breakers, or they certain test people's faith. It's very very hard for someone to believe in God, and believe they have a clear message on what's right and what's wrong, when their Church denomination and sometimes immediate leadership see matters another way.

In much the same way as people struggle with a God who sees blameless children suffer, many will struggle with a God who can't give a clear message across all his flock.