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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Is the Methodist Church right to allow same sex marriage? And what does this mean for C of E and Catholic Church?

229 replies

Notfeelingsopeachyandkeennow · 30/06/2021 16:15

Personally, I am very pro this and think its about time!

I have just read that the Methodist Church is the 4th largest Christian denomination in Britain.

So - do you think that the Catholic Church and Church of England will inevitably follow suit at some point in time - even if that's still 50 years away?

And are you in favour of these changes?

OP posts:
VerticalHorizon · 30/06/2021 17:32

The Bible says many things, especially in the Old Testament. Cherry picking has always been something Christianity has been accused of, and not without justification).

The Bible doesn't paint a particularly welcoming picture for homosexuality, but is that because someone people choose to interpret things literally, or as still relevant today? After all, many practices have long since been abandoned, and that's 'ok', so why is homosexuality still a problem?

There is also an interpretation that homosexuality is just a sign of human imperfection (and none of us are perfect), that God didn't intend it, but it's here nevertheless! God maybe didn't intend us to drink alcohol, or have adventurous sex - but that's here too - with many religions choosing to find a way to deem it permissible within certain constraints.

As for what clergy do. Well, that's a whole other issue. We need only look at how countless abuse cases have existed under the realm of church appointed figures. That's not to say the church condone it, but it's gained a reputation for helping to cover it up.

At the end of the day, things are between you and your God. If he/she's telling you it's ok, then go with that. If he/she's saying it's not ok, then you have no choice but to go with that too, and you'll have to reconcile that with co-existing in a world where it's becoming more and more accepted. You'll also have to reconcile the 'sin' (in your eyes) with the 'sinner'... is anybody fit to cast the stone?

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 30/06/2021 17:32

Motogogo, I sort of hope it is all a sham but if my own life is anything to go by, reconciling faith with practice of faith with being a gay is something that people approach in myriad ways.

If someone out and out says they are celibate, I would be inclined to believe them or at least believe that is what they're aiming for.

It seems like such a horrible thing to demand of someone, if they're not inclined to be celibate.

SimonJT · 30/06/2021 17:32

@Duckyneedsaclean

Why do people never seem to ask this about Islam or orthodox Judaism?
Lots of people are. There are also more than three religions.

We had an Anand Karaj.

mustlovegin · 30/06/2021 17:36

Atheism is not a belief system

Of course it is. Either you believe there is a God or you believe there isn't

It's just not believing. There's no 'system' to speak of

peachyandkeen · 30/06/2021 17:36

@SuperLoudPoppingAction

Episcopal Church in Scotland allows same sex marriage and has done for a wee while.

The church of Scotland discussed it at this year's General assembly and it seems to be moving forward.

The C of S theological Forum papers on the subject make interesting reading.

Personally (as a lesbian and a Christian) i would rather any change happened slowly, bringing the church community along rather than working in opposition.
This is because I have a civil partnership which protects me legally and I would want a religious marriage to be something that was meaningful and sincere and not something that felt like exploiting a loophole.

So obviously I am biased - I would like it to happen - but I wasn't keen to pop next door to the episcopal church and ask if they would perform a wedding ceremony because it wouldn't have been 'my' church.

I don't think institutions formed on belief should have change forced on them. There needs to be a process of examining the ramifications of social change, theological analysis and then adoption of new policy that fits the institution.

I am angrier about c of e clergy in same sex unions being obliged to be celibate.
For me that seems completely inconsistent unless you say any clergy not actively trying to conceive a child should be celibate.

This is a really interesting and nuanced response - thank you @SuperLoudPoppingAction
peachyandkeen · 30/06/2021 17:38

@Toddlerteaplease

The Catholic Church will never allow same sex marriage ever!
One day it will. Even in 300 years +. Either that or it will die off. How is there any alternative?
peachyandkeen · 30/06/2021 17:44

@VerticalHorizon

The Bible says many things, especially in the Old Testament. Cherry picking has always been something Christianity has been accused of, and not without justification).

The Bible doesn't paint a particularly welcoming picture for homosexuality, but is that because someone people choose to interpret things literally, or as still relevant today? After all, many practices have long since been abandoned, and that's 'ok', so why is homosexuality still a problem?

There is also an interpretation that homosexuality is just a sign of human imperfection (and none of us are perfect), that God didn't intend it, but it's here nevertheless! God maybe didn't intend us to drink alcohol, or have adventurous sex - but that's here too - with many religions choosing to find a way to deem it permissible within certain constraints.

As for what clergy do. Well, that's a whole other issue. We need only look at how countless abuse cases have existed under the realm of church appointed figures. That's not to say the church condone it, but it's gained a reputation for helping to cover it up.

At the end of the day, things are between you and your God. If he/she's telling you it's ok, then go with that. If he/she's saying it's not ok, then you have no choice but to go with that too, and you'll have to reconcile that with co-existing in a world where it's becoming more and more accepted. You'll also have to reconcile the 'sin' (in your eyes) with the 'sinner'... is anybody fit to cast the stone?

I like your posts @VerticalHorizon - they're intelligent and articulate
Honeybeebloom · 30/06/2021 17:47

I'm Catholic, as are all my family and many of my friends. I hope they do allow it, as does almost every Catholic I know (I only know one who has been openly homophobic, and he's thick as shit).

VerticalHorizon · 30/06/2021 17:50

I like your posts @VerticalHorizon - they're intelligent and articulate

The devil gives me the power!

ClaudiaWankleman · 30/06/2021 17:52

Critical and independent thinking is a good thing

Could you explain what you mean in the context of same sex marriage please @mustlovegin ?

Muminabun · 30/06/2021 17:53

The church considers marriage to be between a man and a woman for the purposes of having and raising children. To be fair if you don’t believe in Catholicism why would you want a Catholic wedding. There is a debate to be had about the rights of gay people to get married but also the rights of faiths to exercise religious freedom.

LaurieFairyCake · 30/06/2021 17:56

Being against homosexuality is NOT a Christian tenet and Methodism has not been against homosexuality for 70 years !

I'm a Methodist and a Methodist lay preacher - I was going round the circuit with a colleague before Covid doing talks on this as it was being voted on by committee

There has been quite a big split in Methodism so far (the churches in Africa are usually against it)

The URC were the first though I think Smile - another mainstream Christian denomination in the UK

Yes, I think C of E will follow

MrsFionaCharming · 30/06/2021 17:59

I got married in a Methodist church 2 years ago (DH is Methodist, I’m atheist). I asked the minister to change the wording from marriage being between a man and a woman to marriage is between two people. Initially he agreed, then came back later and said he couldn’t because he realised what I meant and the Methodist Church disagreed. Glad they’ve changed their mind!

VerticalHorizon · 30/06/2021 18:06

@Muminabun

The church considers marriage to be between a man and a woman for the purposes of having and raising children. To be fair if you don’t believe in Catholicism why would you want a Catholic wedding. There is a debate to be had about the rights of gay people to get married but also the rights of faiths to exercise religious freedom.
Because the Bible (In Genesis) defines marriage as a union between man and woman, and the Church has stuck with that. It ditched a lot of other stuff, but kept that.

Once upon a time, the will of God (however it was interpreted) was sacrosanct, and effectively became the law, albeit depending on who chose to interpret God's word and how it best suited their own ends.

Now, the state determines the law, and even God (or at least his followers) are bound to abide by it.

Ultimately there's going to be a coming to a head. The Church has been pandered to for a long time, because it's been a significant threat to political systems and monarchies. For Christianity, perhaps that threat is very much diminished these days, making it harder for a Church to set itself apart from the law, or to gain special dispensations, particularly on equality. I think its days of special allowances are numbered, and it knows it.

Religious freedom can no longer be interpreted as 'as God wishes', instead, it's going to have to be 'as the law of the land wishes'. For too long the Church has been the harborer of bigotry, sexism, misogyny and worse, whilst wearing the cloak of liberalism and acceptance.

Stoolpigeon21 · 30/06/2021 18:06

In 2009, Quakers were the first religious organisation to formally recognise same sex marriage www.quaker.org.uk/blog/quakers-and-same-sex-marriage

VerticalHorizon · 30/06/2021 18:08

Being against homosexuality is NOT a Christian tenet and Methodism has not been against homosexuality for 70 years !

Then why has it not allowed same sex marriages in its church?
Why has it never published a definitive statement that homosexuality is ok in the eyes of God?
Why has it been discussed countless times at Synod?

VerticalHorizon · 30/06/2021 18:14

It was in 2018 when the Methodist Church called upon...

“those who feel called by God to solemnise same sex marriages to do so” and “protection for ministers, probationers, members and churches prevented by conscience from participation in such services”.

So - what it ACTUALLY tried to do, was hedge its bets and say 'if you think it's ok, go ahead, and if you don't, then you don't have to go ahead'.

That is NOT saying 'We, the Methodist Church, believe homosexuality is fine in the eyes of God'. Why? because the church was divided in opinion.

VerticalHorizon · 30/06/2021 18:21

From 2014 (and currently on the Methodist website):

These issues include the fact that a major change to the law in 2014 enabled the introduction of same-sex civil marriage, and gave churches and other religious groups the legal ability to opt-in to conduct weddings for same-sex partners if they so wished. But same-sex marriage is not the only consideration.

The Conference in 2014 and subsequently has therefore urged the Methodist people to engage with each other honestly, prayerfully and graciously in a process of deep reflection and discernment about matters relating to marriage and human relationships.

What it's asking members to do, is reflect on same sex marriage (amongst other aspects of relationships), and that's commendable.
What it isn't, is an out and out declaration that God says it's OK.

That's because despite significant prayer, and intercession, they can't actually agree, and certainly don't have the balls to declare it ok. They've done what a lot of politicians do and leave it down to individual choice.

VerticalHorizon · 30/06/2021 18:28

And...

How anybody can claim that homophobia isn't a tenet of Christianity of staggering. It's why we are still having this debate in 2021 and why Churches are still discussing it.

Less than a decade ago, the Pope was denouncing modern politics and culture for trying to change the definition of marriage.

Moneypenny007 · 30/06/2021 18:29

The Catholic Church don't really do things because other Churches do.... its not really their thing.

mustlovegin · 30/06/2021 18:31

Could you explain

I'm not making any judgements here.

What I was referring to was the apparent expectation as per the OP that just because something is accepted by some, others inevitably will follow.

Many will never change their minds on several major matters, and their reasons could be as valid as yours. So it's slightly entitled and patronising to suggest that all major religions will agree on this. There's no need to get defensive here.

VerticalHorizon · 30/06/2021 18:33

In 1991, the C of E had a debate on it...

The 1991 report Issues in Human Sexuality endorsed the
traditional Christian belief that the teaching of the Bible is that
heterosexual marriage is the proper context for sexual activity
between two people.

Not a tenet of Christianity? You're having a laugh. for 2000 years, homosexuality has been frowned upon. Within the last 30 years it's still been avoided and begrudgingly acknowledged as an issue, and still can't fully address it.

mustlovegin · 30/06/2021 18:34

Religious freedom can no longer be interpreted as 'as God wishes', instead, it's going to have to be 'as the law of the land wishes'

This is not religion, it's ideology. Two different things - although entangled in some people's minds

ClaudiaWankleman · 30/06/2021 18:36

Many will never change their minds on several major matters, and their reasons could be as valid as yours. So it's slightly entitled and patronising to suggest that all major religions will agree on this. There's no need to get defensive here.

It’s just quite weird to say that independent critical thinking is a good thing in relation to organised religion, where independent thought isn’t a meaningful aspect of the leadership, the dogma or the structure of the religion.

Most religions don’t engage critically with issues, they point to a static text and move on.

VerticalHorizon · 30/06/2021 18:39

I agree that many will never change their minds and that's why even within any given denomination, there are divisions, and why almost all Churches (if not all) will avoid categorically stating 'God is OK with it'.

I do think in the fullness of time, as older generations die and more liberal ones come to the fore, that more Churches will accept homosexuality in a much more official way. I doubt they will apologise for the periods in history when they didn't do so.

Even the Catholic church must eventually succumb, but only if the weight of opinion is overwhelmingly against them, to the point it threatens its existence.

It's a long way off. I don't think we'll see it in our lifetime. I think many concessions will be made, but that's as long as they're seen as 'concessions', it's not really true acceptance is it?

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