Is the Methodist Church right to allow same sex marriage? And what does this mean for C of E and Catholic Church?

[Notfeelingsopeachyandkeennow]

Personally, I am very pro this and think its about time!

I have just read that the Methodist Church is the 4th largest Christian denomination in Britain.

So - do you think that the Catholic Church and Church of England will inevitably follow suit at some point in time - even if that's still 50 years away?

And are you in favour of these changes?

If the books like the bible ect say x is God's word, then after time advances, and due to human perspectives altering, then logically its not God's commands or God's philosophy, therefore why then do we have the religion, ?

@bridgetreilly

If ever the Church were openly to condone the activities of practising gay and lesbian people, those who have opted for celibacy as the appropriate way of life would feel profoundly betrayed

Still true. If you've been told that the way to be faithful is to renounce your sexual attraction to people of the same sex and embrace celibacy, and have lived like that for many years, trusting that you were doing what God wants of you, even though it's been hard, of course you're going to feel that's thrown back in your face when the church suddenly says, oh sorry, we got that wrong.

Definitely.

The Catholics are sticking to their guns, regardless of popular opinion. They don't really have any choice, or their credibility will be shot to pieces.

Many other Christian denominations are having to worm their way out of the past implied anti-gay stance and present it as clarifying God's will. Re-interpreting scripture in a way that can now accept homosexuality whilst appeasing those that have used scripture as fundamental proof of condemnation. Quite a feat. They know the tide is against them, and they aren't strong enough to withstand the might of popular opinion in the way the Catholic church can.

A lot of the folks forming the church's latest views will be those who 30 years ago bought into the less than accommodating views on homosexuality, let alone gay marriage.

Even now, the Methodist Church still allows individual churches to decide for themselves. Which is in effect, condoning those who take issue with homosexuality or gay marriage. They 'accept' gay marriage, but also allow members to discriminate against it, if they so believe that's the right thing to do - not exactly a wholehearted approval is it?

Marry who you want.

I do think marriage classes/lessons are a great idea.

I'd love the Catholic Church to relax about gay marriage and women priests.

They'll have to eventually to survive.

As long as they see fit to cover up sexual abuse, I doubt they'll give a toss about sexual equality or orientation any time soon.

I just find it strange that they bend their own doctrine, and when I say “they”, technically it’s “us” because I’m officially Methodist but attend services elsewhere.

One of my clearest early memories of church was the constant repetition of marriage being “one man, one woman…blah de blah…indivisible something…begetting of children” and thinking the ministers were all a bit thick to constantly point out the obvious with such emphasis (not realising there were alternate rules to marriage available- of COURSE marriage was Mummies and Daddies having children, doh).

So I find these theological gymnastics hypocritical and wish they’d just be honest that progress and society change their ideology.

OTOH, ofc I want anyone who wants access to a Xian service to have it. I just don’t understand why you would.

It’s conflicting, but I’m conflicted about religion generally, including my own, and eschewed a religious ceremony on feminist grounds (did have a very low key blessing).

@Hawkins001

If the books like the bible ect say x is God's word, then after time advances, and due to human perspectives altering, then logically its not God's commands or God's philosophy, therefore why then do we have the religion, ?

Well the bible is actually a collection of books. The Old Testament is Jewish lore. The New Testament is the Christian addition, and frankly some of the individual books were clearly written by fruitcakes (Paul for example).

I’m no theologian, but it’s seems perfectly obvious to me that all these different and conflicting books can’t all be the literal word of God, not least because that would be very silly and sci if, but mainly because of the internal contradictions.

To me, it’s more like a collection of pointers and clues with some history and ranting thrown in.

The church has historically adapted it's interpretation to suit its own ends.
That, in some senses, sounds very sinister, and I don't think it's always been that way. I genuinely believe a lot of Christians adapt their thinking and interpretations based on their own life experience. What I believed 35 years ago isn't what I believe now. Why should it be much different for a Christian?

Of course, some doctrines have withstood the time, as they absolutely must if they are to hold any weight.
Sexuality and equality have always been problematic though and the church has consistently sought to find interpretations that tried to suggest female equality, whilst never actually offering it. It has been similar with sexuality, although it previously felt a little braver in implying homosexuality wasn't quite right... now it's having to squirm to find ways of making it ok (ish).

I think any faith provides conflicts, including personal ones. Things just don't stack up. The entire faith knows they don't, but tries to brush them aside as personal interpretations, God's will being wiser than we can imagine, or human sin causing deviation from God's perfect plan etc.

You have two perfectly good people who both believe they are listening to God's will. One of whom believes something is right, and another who believes it's wrong. That is bound to cause personal conflict if you both trust God, but also your close friend (who also trusts God). One of you is wrong. But the church would try to find a why to interpret both of you being right!

If you believe the Bible is still the immutable word of God, then time does not change that. It may change people's interpretation of it, or some will argue that God enables it to have new meaning relevant to the age, without words being modified.

In fairness, it's done pretty well thus far. People have managed to make it relevant to their lives throughout the ages.

Literal interpretations have become more difficult, but metaphorical interpretations aren't new. They've been around from the start too.

I think the way the church presents it makes a difference, and TBF, I haven’t read the policy document or whatever they’ve issued, so I suppose I should go and have a look at the horse’s mouth version before firming up my opinion.

@VerticalHorizon

If you believe the Bible is still the immutable word of God, then time does not change that. It may change people's interpretation of it, or some will argue that God enables it to have new meaning relevant to the age, without words being modified.

In fairness, it's done pretty well thus far. People have managed to make it relevant to their lives throughout the ages.

Literal interpretations have become more difficult, but metaphorical interpretations aren't new. They've been around from the start too.

metaphorical interpretations , with that it seems to be in God's good books, do x y z not people think ill.do a b c, because then it's basically like a boss or a parent saying do x and you'll get a reward, but instead the person says ill so a instead and still expect praise and the reward.

I don’t think the Catholic Church is influenced by the Methodists, no.

I think people are very naive to talk about ‘popular opinion’ as if it’s the same across the globe. The vast majority of Catholics aren’t living in largely secularised Western countries,

The issue for a very large global church is keeping everyone together. Not everybody around the world feels the same way about this, or any other issue, as the average latte-sipping resident of southern England.

The Catholic Church doesn’t have to ‘survive’ in the UK. That’s really not where the numbers are.

I don’t think the Catholic Church is influenced by the Methodists, no.

Serious, non-goady question. Why are they even Christian? These are kind of major tenets of their faith. As you wrote, haven’t their minds grown beyond this? They believe in the compassionate side, my DM had full belief she was going to heaven on her deathbed, it gave her comfort to be a good Catholic. I'm a Catholic too mainly at Christmas & easter or when I'm in trouble or pain I ask God for help.
It is possible to have faith and see the injustice caused by the church, man,men, the root of injustice caused.
I believe man is not blame not God. I'm pro choice when it comes to an individual's right as long as your not deliberately hurting anyone live and let live.
My DD is gay, I had an abortion in my youth. God's cool with it.

@bridgetreilly

If ever the Church were openly to condone the activities of practising gay and lesbian people, those who have opted for celibacy as the appropriate way of life would feel profoundly betrayed

Still true. If you've been told that the way to be faithful is to renounce your sexual attraction to people of the same sex and embrace celibacy, and have lived like that for many years, trusting that you were doing what God wants of you, even though it's been hard, of course you're going to feel that's thrown back in your face when the church suddenly says, oh sorry, we got that wrong.

But the Catholic Church has form for such betrayal, albeit only to its priests, hasn't it? Celibacy was an essential requirement for Catholic priests, and still is supposedly. Not however, if you are a married Anglican priest who couldn't bear to remain in a Church that would allow mere women to be priests! Oh no, they were welcomed with open arms, wives and families too. Anything to make the Catholic church even more misogynistic! If I was a Catholic priest who had struggled to remain celibate all my life, I'd be furious.

But if the Church can betray its priests like that, why not other celibate Catholics?

It won't though. Homophobia is too entrenched.

@Viviennemary

I wasn't meaning siblings were allowed to marry. I was meaning the laws regarding inheritance tax. Giving the two sisters rights as regards inheritance tax.

I do get what you mean. Like a Lasting Power of Attorney - a kind of 'Lasting Living Commitment' where two close relatives share a house and care for each other, with the commitment possibly needing to be signed by a notary?

I was raised a Catholic, and am queer, and do not see the Catholic Church allowing same sex marriage anytime soon seeing as women aren’t allowed to be priests and (sadly) a lot of Catholic money comes from rich American donors who are even more right wing.

Most catholics in my former congregation would accept same sex marriage, and some also abortion, as would our former priest but our priest wasn’t your average priest, an ex prison chaplain and very liberal.

I don’t much about the cofe church but they seem more likely, I’m actually quite surprised the Methodists have done this, as I used to think of them as bigoted as the Catholic Church.

Just realised cofe church is me putting church twice 😆 oh dear

I'm Catholic and completely pro equal marriage - the bit in the bible about 'no sodomy' is in the same list of rules as 'don't wear mixed fibres'. I don't understand why people are still taking it seriously.

I also think priests should be able to get married - it would solve the recruitment crisis.

I don't know how likely any of this is though, I go to church in Brighton so we are probably a pretty liberal congregation as opposed to the church as a whole.

Why would a gay couple want to marry in a Christian church? Are there many gay Christians? If there are, then I'm all for it.

@Gazingelle

Why would a gay couple want to marry in a Christian church? Are there many gay Christians? If there are, then I'm all for it.

Of course there are. Also clergy. Many of them have been tortured over this.

My reaction to being a woman in the church is to keep one foot out, though, so I struggle to see why a gay person would rush to embrace the crumbs.

OTOH, there’s a reason why we haven’t all walked off and left the straight men to their religious patriarchy.

Methodism wants far too much credit for being one step ahead of the Anglicans and two ahead of the Catholics, though.

I would love to see the day when we have true marriage equality in this country. But the Roman Catholic Church and the Church of England are two very different denominations with different governing bodies.

The theological definition of marriage differs from the secular definition of marriage. That's the biggest hurdle for the church to overcome. But given 99% of people don't know that and the term marriage is used interchangeably in Christian and secular settings, does it matter?