Is the Methodist Church right to allow same sex marriage? And what does this mean for C of E and Catholic Church?

[Notfeelingsopeachyandkeennow]

Personally, I am very pro this and think its about time!

I have just read that the Methodist Church is the 4th largest Christian denomination in Britain.

So - do you think that the Catholic Church and Church of England will inevitably follow suit at some point in time - even if that's still 50 years away?

And are you in favour of these changes?

What I’m trying to say is that the reason the Catholic and Protestant churches don’t allow same sex marriage is not because they have critically engaged with the concept.

@ClaudiaWankleman

Many will never change their minds on several major matters, and their reasons could be as valid as yours. So it's slightly entitled and patronising to suggest that all major religions will agree on this. There's no need to get defensive here.

It’s just quite weird to say that independent critical thinking is a good thing in relation to organised religion, where independent thought isn’t a meaningful aspect of the leadership, the dogma or the structure of the religion.

Most religions don’t engage critically with issues, they point to a static text and move on.

This. 100%.

@VerticalHorizon

I agree that many will never change their minds and that's why even within any given denomination, there are divisions, and why almost all Churches (if not all) will avoid categorically stating 'God is OK with it'.

I do think in the fullness of time, as older generations die and more liberal ones come to the fore, that more Churches will accept homosexuality in a much more official way. I doubt they will apologise for the periods in history when they didn't do so.

Even the Catholic church must eventually succumb, but only if the weight of opinion is overwhelmingly against them, to the point it threatens its existence.

It's a long way off. I don't think we'll see it in our lifetime. I think many concessions will be made, but that's as long as they're seen as 'concessions', it's not really true acceptance is it?

"I do think in the fullness of time, as older generations die and more liberal ones come to the fore, that more Churches will accept homosexuality in a much more official way."

Yes surely this is an inescapable inevitability. I certainly think and hope so. I don't really see how anyone on this thread or otherwise can disagree with this - but lets see -

I don't think the Catholic church will change its stance. Marriage is between one man one woman and thats it. It doesn't mean anti gay. It means marriage is between a man and a woman.

Can same sex siblings get married, to avoid inheritance tax etc?

Seems only fair.

Or come to that, opposite sex siblings.
No one actually checks if a marriage is consummated these days, do they?

@VerticalHorizon

The problem the Methodist church, and for that matter most other denominations has is that for years, it has preached that homosexuality is wrong and used the bible as evidence of God's word against it...

In recent decades, it's had to climb down a bit and try to save face, by trying to claim the physical act of homosexuality is wrong, but the people themselves should simply abstain from the act etc.

Now they are faced with overwhelming public opinion in favour of homosexuality, and to be 'against' it causes massive ructions, but they don't want to have to say 'all those centuries we've said it was wrong, well, now it's ok'... and that is their predicament.

For Islam and Judaism, their geographical strongholds remain in regions where homophobia is readily accepted, if not endorsed. They have no need to 'accept' it, because the population isn't at the same stage as the Western World (or large parts of it).

It's taken donkey's years for Christianity to come even close to accepting homosexuality (and it still doesn't, not really). Only when faced with overwhelming secular condemnation does it seek to change opinion, albeit grudgingly.

The British Methodist church absolutely doesn't hold these views. I was brought up in a Methodist family and my grandfather was as a Methodist minister. I have never been taught, nor have I ever heard anyone say that homosexuality is wrong. They most certainly do not preach it in the UK.

The British Methodist church absolutely doesn't hold these views. I was brought up in a Methodist family and my grandfather was as a Methodist minister. I have never been taught, nor have I ever heard anyone say that homosexuality is wrong. They most certainly do not preach it in the UK.

They have done. I've witnessed it.
Can you explain why a same sex marriage cannot be solemnised in Church?

I don’t think the Catholic church will change its stance on marriage.

It might, at some future point, change its position on the morality of some sexual acts.

Atheism is a belief but not a belief system.

The Methodist church is tiny globally, so not really comparable to the Catholic church.

I am not convinced that we are heading down a path globally or in the U.K. towards greater acceptance of homosexuality than we have now. The groups that are opposed to homosexuality are expanding in size through demographic processes.

@MrsFin

Can same sex siblings get married, to avoid inheritance tax etc? Seems only fair.

Unusual take of the day.

Homosexuality was first openly debated at General Conference in 1972, four years after the formation of The United Methodist Church, resulting in the addition of first statement on homosexuality. While affirming belief that persons of homosexual orientation are persons of sacred worth who need the ministry and guidance of the church, the statement added that the church “does not condone the practice of homosexuality and considers this practice incompatible with Christian teaching.”

Tell me again it's never said it's wrong?

I've read quite a lot of misconceptions on this thread already. Maybe I should start an 'ask me anything'. I'm in Methodist ministry (namechanged for this because I don't need my colleagues to recognise me and link me to my embarrassing daft mumsnet questions! I've changed to the name of the campaign group for same sex marriage in Methodism 'dignity and worth'. I thought it was topical but disclaimer - I'm not actually them).

1. Methodism has not 'preached against homosexuality for years'. We are one of the most liberal denominations in the UK. Arguably you could say that everyone has had to 'backtrack'. Like, the government, ordinary people, the law... so why is it progress when countries do it, but 'backtracking' when churches do? That's just prejudice against churches to phrase it like that.
2. Remember same sex marriage wasn't even legalised in the UK until 2013. So we couldn't even have begun considering allowing it until after that. Given it takes a working party, report to approve, discussions at circuit and individual church level and returning to conference to vote,with a pandemic thrown in, I think we've moved pretty quickly!
3. Someone said there is a disjunct between membership and leadership. In the Methodist church our president and vice president change every year and our chairs of district every 5 years to stop this disjunct. The report on same sex marriage (and also cohabitation actually) had to be discussed at local levels with ordinary Methodists and voted on at district level before going back to conference for a final vote. Very bureaucratic and a bit time consuming, but it means everyone gets their voice heard.
4. The Bible says homosexuality is wrong. Methodists have always, since their beginning, interpeted the Bible not literally but in light of reason, experience and tradition (John Wesley's own quadrilateral). This means that we recognise that the Bible was written in a particular historical context and we should be aware of that. That doesn't mean we discard the general principles; it means we use tools of scriptural interpretation (exegesis). It's rather more thought through than 'cherry picking'.
5. Yes the Methodist church has a leadership structure. How else would we have voted it through? A very organised, administrative 'methodical' leadership structure. Hence the name 'Methodist'.
6. It's not insignificant. Methodism is the fourth biggest denomination in the UK, there are Methodist churches in most towns and if you are a gay couple wanting a religious wedding there are now options. That's very significant.
7. Impact. Globally, Methodism is pretty big. This will have an impact and one of the challenges for the church is making sure that it doesn't have a negative impact on Methodists in countries where it is still illegal to be gay. The CofE is very split on this issue, around 50/50. I don't think they will resolve it any time soon, but this will mean conversations are ongoing. It may be the CofE ends up splitting on this. The Roman Catholic Church is still against contraception and women priests so that's a whole other ballgame. Hope that clears up some of the questions. And, to answer the OPs question, I think it is right and I'm so happy that the vote went through today.

I am a practicing Christian my husband is a Cof E vicar and there are massive pushes going on from clergy members recognise same sex marriage in the C of E.
There are a significant number of same sex couples living in vicarages across the UK so on a local basis people are pro this development.
Now central church needs to get with the programme.

There are 40.5 million Methodists in the world and 1.2 billion Catholics.

It is a tiny denomination globally.

Verticalhorizon i think it was the phrase 'preached against' that posters aren't keen on. Methodist preachers have very much not been banging on about it in pulpits! Of course at one point the church thought it was wrong in an official statement somewhere. So did the state. So did your and my ancestors. It's just not Methodist style to shout 'doom to homosexuals' from pulpits.. I've been in Methodist ministry a long time, and a Methodist all my life. I have never ever heard homosexuality 'preached against' in a Methodist church.

Yes. I read ages ago about two elderly sisters who lived in a property worth a lot. When one died it would have to be sold to pay the inheritance tax and the surviving sister would lose her home. Don't know if the law has changed since.

@Dignityandworth

I've read quite a lot of misconceptions on this thread already. Maybe I should start an 'ask me anything'. I'm in Methodist ministry (namechanged for this because I don't need my colleagues to recognise me and link me to my embarrassing daft mumsnet questions! I've changed to the name of the campaign group for same sex marriage in Methodism 'dignity and worth'. I thought it was topical but disclaimer - I'm not actually them). 1) Methodism has not 'preached against homosexuality for years'. We are one of the most liberal denominations in the UK. Arguably you could say that everyone has had to 'backtrack'. Like, the government, ordinary people, the law... so why is it progress when countries do it, but 'backtracking' when churches do? That's just prejudice against churches to phrase it like that. 2) Remember same sex marriage wasn't even legalised in the UK until 2013. So we couldn't even have begun considering allowing it until after that. Given it takes a working party, report to approve, discussions at circuit and individual church level and returning to conference to vote,with a pandemic thrown in, I think we've moved pretty quickly! 3) Someone said there is a disjunct between membership and leadership. In the Methodist church our president and vice president change every year and our chairs of district every 5 years to stop this disjunct. The report on same sex marriage (and also cohabitation actually) had to be discussed at local levels with ordinary Methodists and voted on at district level before going back to conference for a final vote. Very bureaucratic and a bit time consuming, but it means everyone gets their voice heard. 4) The Bible says homosexuality is wrong. Methodists have always, since their beginning, interpeted the Bible not literally but in light of reason, experience and tradition (John Wesley's own quadrilateral). This means that we recognise that the Bible was written in a particular historical context and we should be aware of that. That doesn't mean we discard the general principles; it means we use tools of scriptural interpretation (exegesis). It's rather more thought through than 'cherry picking'. 5) Yes the Methodist church has a leadership structure. How else would we have voted it through? A very organised, administrative 'methodical' leadership structure. Hence the name 'Methodist'. 6) It's not insignificant. Methodism is the fourth biggest denomination in the UK, there are Methodist churches in most towns and if you are a gay couple wanting a religious wedding there are now options. That's very significant. 7) Impact. Globally, Methodism is pretty big. This will have an impact and one of the challenges for the church is making sure that it doesn't have a negative impact on Methodists in countries where it is still illegal to be gay. The CofE is very split on this issue, around 50/50. I don't think they will resolve it any time soon, but this will mean conversations are ongoing. It may be the CofE ends up splitting on this. The Roman Catholic Church is still against contraception and women priests so that's a whole other ballgame. Hope that clears up some of the questions. And, to answer the OPs question, I think it is right and I'm so happy that the vote went through today.

Oh thank you for this contribution - it is really well written and interesting. Also good to hear from someone in Methodist ministry.

@HappyDays40

I am a practicing Christian my husband is a Cof E vicar and there are massive pushes going on from clergy members recognise same sex marriage in the C of E. There are a significant number of same sex couples living in vicarages across the UK so on a local basis people are pro this development. Now central church needs to get with the programme.

How long do you estimate this change might take @HappyDays40? Just as a rough guess?

@LibertyMole

There are 40.5 million Methodists in the world and 1.2 billion Catholics.

It is a tiny denomination globally.

40.5 million spread across many countries is big enough for global impact although of course much smaller than Catholicism. Hence 'pretty big' not 'huge'.This vote only actually applies to the UK but it will influence the Methodist churches of other countries.

@motogogo

Hopefully it means the c of e will be next, not holding my breath though (I work for them and 80.% of the vicars I know are in favour but the ones that shout the loudest aren't!)

C of E is very much everyone in their own ‘streams’. So it’s likely that those who don’t believe that gay marriage is consistent with scripture will mostly know others who feel the same, just as you do.

I’m in favour of gay marriage in church, but I know and love many who feel that they just can’t because it wouldn’t be scriptural. I don’t think it’s right that the move to be inclusive of gay people should be exclusive of people who share the orthodox position. That switching one discrimination for another. I would like to see both groups allowed to exercise their beliefs within the C of E with sensitivity and love for one another. This may be utopian, but optimism and utopias are faith communities bread and butter!

in 2014, the Methodist Church opted to allow 'celebration of same sex civil partnerships', but at that point chose not to endorse marriages within the Church. Why?

In 2019 it finally endorsed same sex marriages within church. Great.

So, what of the years before 2014? and why the delay?

It's disingenuous to claim the Methodist Church hasn't been against homosexuality, ever.

@LibertyMole

There are 40.5 million Methodists in the world and 1.2 billion Catholics.

It is a tiny denomination globally.

No its not a tiny denomination - come on! 40.5 million people is an enormous number! Yes, okay, comparatively to 1.2 billion members in the Catholic Church - it is small. But I think that its narrow to only look at it in terms of the number of people within that denomination, as large and systemic change is more often brought about in an incremental way - many small building blocks, if you like.

And as a PP just said - Methodists are the 4th largest denomination in the UK. It will make people reflect upon what is going on elsewhere (within other denominations) at the very least, which I think is important. Its a statement, as well as an action. An endorsement.

@Viviennemary

Yes. I read ages ago about two elderly sisters who lived in a property worth a lot. When one died it would have to be sold to pay the inheritance tax and the surviving sister would lose her home. Don't know if the law has changed since.

Oh I learnt about this at university!

that case I mean

@Viviennemary

Yes. I read ages ago about two elderly sisters who lived in a property worth a lot. When one died it would have to be sold to pay the inheritance tax and the surviving sister would lose her home. Don't know if the law has changed since.

But they weren't actually allowed to get married. And no the law has not changed - as you most likely are well aware. Siblings are not allowed to marry.