AIBU to expect female only nurses on a gynae ward?

[PanamaPattie]

My vulnerable elderly aunt has recently had an hysterectomy for ovarian cancer. During a telephone call, she became very upset because she had her catheter taken out and was helped to shower by a male nurse. She didn't feel that she could complain as she was afraid of repercussions.

Am I being unreasonable to expect female only care on a gynae ward - considering the intimate and invasive nature of care?

@ThunderBitch

I'm so disturbed by women on this thread who are showing zero empathy, compassion, or even basic understanding of the situation. Some of you are HCPs yourself. It's genuinely shocking.

It's awful for your aunt, OP. Sounds like she has been left feeling very frightened and upset by the experience. For everyone saying 'a nurse is a nurse' maybe reflect on some of the qualities that nurses (male and female) are supposed to have: sensitivity to patient's needs, an empathetic attitude, and compassion. None of those are in evidence in the 'care' given by this person.

I would never want intimate care to be given by a male. And I agree that gynae wards should be staffed by females wherever possible. It creeps me out that so many men want to go into gynaecology in the first place.

Can you copy and paste the part of OP's posts that led you to state this?

"reflect on some of the qualities that nurses (male and female) are supposed to have: sensitivity to patient's needs, an empathetic attitude, and compassion. None of those are in evidence in the 'care' given by this person."

There is literally not a single thing OP has said that justifies casting aspersions on the quality of this person's care or suggesting that he does or doesn't have any of those qualities.

It's not always going to be possible for a female hcp to care for patients, there can be occasions when there are Male hcp on duty, the female nurse may be with another patient, busy elsewhere, in their break, especially on nights. If a patient needs personal care then all the nurses regardless of gender should ask if they are happy for the patient to have them offer this care, if they say no then the care will be delayed and thats not always easy in acute situations. Is it the norm for chaperones to be present, I have never seen that unless its to help a doctor or nurse carry out a procedure, not for toiletting or bathing. Some male hcp may prefer not to give personal care to female patients, but they are not asked . There are Male patients who would prefer Male staff.

@ThunderBitch

I'm so disturbed by women on this thread who are showing zero empathy, compassion, or even basic understanding of the situation. Some of you are HCPs yourself. It's genuinely shocking.

It's awful for your aunt, OP. Sounds like she has been left feeling very frightened and upset by the experience. For everyone saying 'a nurse is a nurse' maybe reflect on some of the qualities that nurses (male and female) are supposed to have: sensitivity to patient's needs, an empathetic attitude, and compassion. None of those are in evidence in the 'care' given by this person.

I would never want intimate care to be given by a male. And I agree that gynae wards should be staffed by females wherever possible. It creeps me out that so many men want to go into gynaecology in the first place.

As I’ve said several times on this thread, o don’t think it is a gynaecologist Ward. I think the OP and/or her aunt have misunderstood. I think it’s more likely she is on a mixed surgical ward, but because she is in a female bay, she doesn’t realise there are male patients on the ward.

I’m not saying the aunt shouldn’t request female nurses, but I do think there has been a misunderstanding and she is unlikely to actually be on a gynae ward.

For clarification- the ward my aunt was on is described as “female gynaecology and urology”.

So is it normal for male HCAs or nurses to wash or shower naked female patients with no chaperone or offer of a chaperone?

(I mean it's a crazy idea because it would be far more efficient staff-wise for the female chaperone to do the washing but still.)

Not sure why some people are dismissing OP saying it's a gynae ward, doesn't sound overly wild.

There is literally not a single thing OP has said that justifies casting aspersions on the quality of this person's care or suggesting that he does or doesn't have any of those qualities.

Apart from the fact that he didn't take a second to check that the patient was okay with intimate care from a male nurse, and the fact he didn't appear to notice that she was distressed and frightened?

@ThunderBitch

There is literally not a single thing OP has said that justifies casting aspersions on the quality of this person's care or suggesting that he does or doesn't have any of those qualities.

Apart from the fact that he didn't take a second to check that the patient was okay with intimate care from a male nurse, and the fact he didn't appear to notice that she was distressed and frightened?

OP hasn’t said whether he checked or not.

Plenty of people manage to hide their distress, just as others are distressed at being given personal care regardless of the carer.

Come on now. You’re entitled to feel however you feel towards male clinicians and carers, but assuming this person provided shit care when nobody has said anything of the sort is about your bias and nothing else.

@Congressdingo

they really do understand that some patients are from a generation where no one has seen them naked in decades, except possibly a husband or partner

Or been raped or assaulted or childhood abuse or the myriad of abuses that women go through means they are wary of men in general but especially in intimate settings. Your comment is very ageist.

I’m sorry, as ageist is the last thing I want to be. Many others, including the OP, have pointed to age specifically as something thar they believe makes the person in the OP vulnerable. I was trying to point out why being that age might make them uncomfortable. But you are absolutely correct about the myriad of abuses that women can be subjected to, and it was rather blind of me to not think that a woman of any age may also be a rape survivor or child abuse survivor. While I still believe the same as I did about male nurses as professionals, in light of your comment, it would probably be best if they take the onus off the patient and make it as easy as possible for women to have women nurses for intimate care if they want them (i.e. ask the patient WITHOUT the patient having to request it first). I just also know that a male nurse is a professional that removes catheters and bathes people of both genders all day and will be just as professional doing that as they would be doing anything else.

@PanamaPattie

For clarification- the ward my aunt was on is described as “female gynaecology and urology”.

Ok, just thought I’d check, as when I had it (for fibroids) I was under a gynaecologist but a surgeon carried out the op and I was on a surgical ward, and I wondered if there had been a misunderstanding but clearly I was wrong, sorry.

Agree with others a nurse is a nurse. I personally have no issue with male nurses on a gynaecology ward but I’m surprised that they didn’t talk to your elderly aunt first about her being comfortable with a male nurse doing the procedure. I understand that staffing issues can limit choices but women patients in vulnerable positions like this should be given the choice of a man or woman.

I don’t agree with others that she could have just asked for a female nurse, it’s not that easy for some people to speak up. She should definitely have been asked if she was ok with it first.

I would speak up on her behalf.

For everyone who thinks it’s no problem - what about in a situation with, say, a female child? If your preteen or young teenage daughter was in hospital, would you have a problem with her being given intimate care alone by a male HCP? If you would, why is it different for the OP’s elderly aunt? Is it just that the aunt is an adult and should therefore shut up and put up?

Why is almost everyone ignoring this question? Is it because you know deep down that you would never be comfortable with a strange adult male being alone with and washing your tween daughter in a closed room, no matter what qualifications he had?

I was a teen when I had my DD. The amount of male doctors and other care professionals who would touch me and examine me without gaining clear consent is staggering to look back on.

I can see why you all jumped to the conclusion it would be female-only from what you said, you all likely had other things on your mind than checking this. I think in the run up to the operation, someone should have asked her preference on the matter.

It's awful that your aunt has been so hurt by this. I hope you can all get the support you need.

A medical proffesional is a medical proffesional, they arent perverts getting of on seeing sick peoples vaginas. They trained hard and work hard to care for the vunerable thats all and their genitals have no part of that.

As someone who has been raped in hospital, when I was quite ill, I'd like to say such violence is about power, not really about getting off (mine laughed about how I'd been "taught a lesson"), and no matter how hard someone works for their qualification, it doesn't mean that they wouldn't abuse power. Going on about the work to get into a particular field like that makes any differences dismisses victims of abuse by people in those fields. That's become understood with clergy and teachers, but there still seems to be some barrier to some people getting that with medical professionals.

I don't think anything like that has happened with the OP's aunt, he most likely did his job okay, but there is a reason why procedures have been developed to check consent and why it's such an issue that things are so overstretched these days that too often they're ignored or done in a way that doesn't always demonstrate full understanding of the patient.

I know near me, places have put up big signs during COVID about the right to ask for a chaperone and similar and professionals have asked me, even the women. Pre-COVID, we were encouraged to bring our own in if that would make us more comfortable. There are systems in place that run well in some places, though some are shakier at the moment. There may have been some here that didn't take account enough how some vulnerable people act in these situations.

Whatever the reason, it doesn't change that a vulnerable woman was hurt in this situation & no amount of going on about what qualifications the person might have had or that medical professionals are not perverts changes that.

I once posted on here about how (< 18yo) DD needed an intimate examination & wanted a female GP which wasn't available on request -- I got absolutely flamed for this, how ridiculous DD was being. And me for agreeing with her.

Meanwhile a lady in her 80s can't be expected to request a female nurse for shower help. "Too vulnerable.' to be able to assert herself. Another thread is going about the student stuck isolating alone in a student flat (poor thing, she is too "shy" too ask Uni for support so maybe her mother should drive 10 hours round trip to fetch the wee poor thing home -- breaking covid rules and expose her entire family there potentially).

Great reminders how very full of BS MN is.

@KitBumbleB

For everyone who thinks it’s no problem - what about in a situation with, say, a female child? If your preteen or young teenage daughter was in hospital, would you have a problem with her being given intimate care alone by a male HCP? If you would, why is it different for the OP’s elderly aunt? Is it just that the aunt is an adult and should therefore shut up and put up?

Why is almost everyone ignoring this question? Is it because you know deep down that you would never be comfortable with a strange adult male being alone with and washing your tween daughter in a closed room, no matter what qualifications he had?

I was a teen when I had my DD. The amount of male doctors and other care professionals who would touch me and examine me without gaining clear consent is staggering to look back on.

Because if they answered honestly they know how hypocritical they would look (or they don't have daughters).

Couldn't agree more sweet

Would you expect gynaecology doctors to be all female too? No, of course not. Plus removal of catheters and washing and dressing happens on all wards, not just gynae. Would you expect only male nurses on urology wards? However, I have no doubt they would have been understanding if your aunt had spoken up but it’s completely unreasonable and sexist to expect male nurses not to work there at all.

@lljkk

I once posted on here about how (< 18yo) DD needed an intimate examination & wanted a female GP which wasn't available on request -- I got absolutely flamed for this, how ridiculous DD was being. And me for agreeing with her.

Meanwhile a lady in her 80s can't be expected to request a female nurse for shower help. "Too vulnerable.' to be able to assert herself. Another thread is going about the student stuck isolating alone in a student flat (poor thing, she is too "shy" too ask Uni for support so maybe her mother should drive 10 hours round trip to fetch the wee poor thing home -- breaking covid rules and expose her entire family there potentially).

Great reminders how very full of BS MN is.

Fucking hell. Several people posted about your outrageous comment upthread about 80+ year olds and yet another vulnerable dig.

I am a disabled and chronically ill woman several decades younger than this elderly lady. I’ve had very invasive major surgery. Hysterectomies are one of the biggest surgeries women can have…. And there is no male equivalent obviously.

Frail women are particularly vulnerable after invasive major surgery. And you’re banging on about being too vulnerable. Just vile.

As for your dd, mumsnet is not a hive mind. You’ve been here long enough to know that.

Come on now. You’re entitled to feel however you feel towards male clinicians and carers, but assuming this person provided shit care when nobody has said anything of the sort is about your bias and nothing else.

That was the impression I got from the OP's posts. It certainly doesn't sound like the patient was asked whether she was okay with what was happening, and that in itself strikes me as unprofessional. You're right that I don't know if she was actually showing signs of fear and distress at that point, and if she covered up her feelings well, it's possible the nurse didn't have any clue how upset she was.

I think my view of the situation is partly coloured by the horrible unempathic responses of some on this thread. The 'get over it' and 'she should have said' and 'I wouldn't care' and all of that. You're right, it has probably biased me against this individual. In reality, when there are issues like this, it's usually a wider problem of attitude or culture - so maybe I am being unfair to blame the male nurse in particular. He is clearly just one manifestation of a larger problem: that many people have no care or consideration for women.

Whatever the reason, it doesn't change that a vulnerable woman was hurt in this situation & no amount of going on about what qualifications the person might have had or that medical professionals are not perverts changes that.

If medical qualifications prevented someone from abusing the trust of their patient, then no one would ever have had to be struck off the registers. Yet still, it happens.

There are no sacred castes in safeguarding. Proper safeguarding protects both the patient and the carer.

I think if a ward is known as the female gynae and urology ward you can expect the patients to e female, not the staff.

Yabu, nurses are professionals.

@AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken

Nobody is really questioning the professionalism of nurses.
It's about understanding the reluctance of some females to have intimate aspects of their care undertaken by a male. That is entirely the female's patient's issue / concern and often with very valid reason.

The issue the NHS has is that it's not always easy to cater to every personal preference. If it's possible, I would like to think such a request would be granted, but I also suspect the NHS doesn't want to get into a situation where such requests become so commonplace, it becomes a logistical problem for them.

Personally, it's my belief that whilst the NHS pays lip service to meeting people's needs and preferences, the reality is, patients are just numbers to them. That's not to say each nurse or doctor has that attitude, but as a system, that's the reality of it. In some senses, that's how it has to be in order to remain efficient, in other senses, it could do more to take into account the mental and emotional wellbeing of patients (as well as their immediate physical needs).

A male nurse can perform all tasks a female one can, with equal sensitivity and skill - that's not the issue. The issue is clearly that men 'at large' have posed a threat to women, and thus many women simply do not feel comfortable in intimate situation with a male. Entirely understandable. It isn't irrational thinking on the woman's part. It may be statistically unlikely that anything untoward will occur, but the fear of it is quite genuine.

And, let us not forget, it may not be a fear issue. It could simply be a matter of religion, modesty or embarrassment. Whether, ultimately any of those factors should prevent medical treatment is up for grabs, but they should at least be acknowledged as legitimate factors...

@ElephantMoth

Yabu, nurses are professionals.

It's not really the job of the patient to validate the professionalism of any medical staff. It's possible to both understand that someone is a trained professional and not want them washing you.