AIBU to expect female only nurses on a gynae ward?

[PanamaPattie]

My vulnerable elderly aunt has recently had an hysterectomy for ovarian cancer. During a telephone call, she became very upset because she had her catheter taken out and was helped to shower by a male nurse. She didn't feel that she could complain as she was afraid of repercussions.

Am I being unreasonable to expect female only care on a gynae ward - considering the intimate and invasive nature of care?

Bathing and catheter management happen on lots and lots of wards, it's not specific to gynacology so there's no reason to single out gynae wards to have female only staff. Surgical patients need catheters and baths. I do think YABU to think gynae wards should have female only staff

Why is it that cultural and religious beliefs are catered for.but women at their mostt vulnerable are not?

I think this boils done to why she didn't feel like she could ask for a female nurse. I wouldn't becuase I don't like to cause an issue, and would feel awkward, that's my issue and not the fault of the hospital. If they were aggressive or made her feel like she couldn't ask then Yanbu.

I think it’s unreasonable to expect female nurses only on any ward, but absolutely not unreasonable at all for your aunt to request a female nurse and for that to be respected.

If she doesn’t feel comfortable asking for that, could you speak to the person in charge of the ward on her behalf?

MNers are proud of their inability to assert themselves.

The exalt this & then moan that someone took advantage of them.

Repeatedly. It's like a cult.

I used to be quite blaise about men being in Gynae wards, male midwives, etc.

Then the other day I found myself in the sexual health clinic for a check up. On the scale of physical reserve I'm usually about 8. I'll whip boobs out to check for cysts and pull my panties down with batting an eyelash.

This time - and I'm still not 100% sure why it could be I was very untidy below and feeling a bit vulnerable since my partner left me, it doesn't matter - I found myself feeling very uncomfortable. This young, good looking guy - usually a bonus in my book - stepped forward to do my smear and sexual health check and I suddenly had a strong feeling that I really would have preferred a woman. I wasn't asked beforehand if I was comfortable with either sex doing the examination. It wasn't until he came into the room that I had a sudden regret for not asking for a woman.

I wasn't traumatised but I did feel at that point that I couldn't object and left feeling slightly...exposed?

I now think I would like to see only female gynaes and midwives working with women and vice Versa. Women aren't always able to speak up for their preferences. Especially those suffering dementia etc

I'm also starting to appreciate the feeling of safety, unity and power of women only spaces. I think we've possibly taken it for granted and thrown the baby out with the bathwater in this sort of crossing over everything with the opposite sex. Maybe its because I'm past 40! Never gonna happen anyway, but certainly the choice should be given

In regards to your Aunt I'm sorry and I'm not surprised she's upset. Plain wrong in my book for someone not to have asked

I don’t think that only female nurses should be allowed to work there. But I do think patients should be informed that they can ask for a female nurse.

I was asked if it was ok to have a male midwife when I had dd - but that was 13 years ago. Sadly things have declined since then.

@DamnUserName21

Deemed by whom? The consent needs to be given explicitly and not in a situation of vulnerability. It should be part of the checking in system and in an atmosphere where the patient is free to decide, not at the point where a male HCP/HCA comes to take a vulnerable and fearful patient off to the shower.

Deemed by law. Implied consent is a real thing. Best practice would be to get verbal consent in terms of personal care though but not everyone talks.

www.cqc.org.uk/sites/default/files/documents/rp_poc1b_100476_20110331_v1_00_sn_consent_updated_for_publication.pdf

It's really important for preferences to be expressed at start of stay or before any procedure or care. But again the onus isn't on the HCP if the patient can clearly see and hear that the carer is the opposite sex.

I think you need to re-read that document carefully starting from the top.

I think in this situation it would have been appropriate for the male nurse to introduce himself and to check if the patient was OK with him helping with her care needs that day. Some people would be OK regardless, some would be OK because they had been asked and given the choice, and others would appreciate the opportunity to say, 'I"m sorry, but no.'

No. Just no. I am a nurse and if my male colleagues had to do that for every female patient who required basic nursing care they would never get anything done. Totally impractical.

Is that because a lot of female patients would not consent?

Have I got this right - you're a nurse and you're saying it's 'impractical' to obtain patient consent?

@Gavellar

Why is it that cultural and religious beliefs are catered for.but women at their mostt vulnerable are not?

Because presumably women with cultural and/or religious beliefs speak up and inform the HCPs of their needs, they don't just expect people to know them.

The lack of response cannot be reasonably interpreted as implied consent.

Can you even be sure the patient has heard / read / understood what has been asked?

Implied consent is more akin to a non-verbal confirmation by action, e,g, explaining that you'd like to take someone's blood pressure and explaining to them they have the right to say no. If that person then sits down in the chair and rolls up their sleeve, you can reasonably infer that a) they understood and b) they consented.

If you tell a patient you need to perform a rectal examination, and do not explain they can say no, then proceed to guide them to an inspection area, you do not have implied consent. Firstly because you have not explained that they can say no (so may feel obliged), and secondly because they may not have understood what's involved or what you even told them.

I had to go to the GUM clinic at my hospital a couple of years ago when I was experiencing a lot of pelvic pain and needed an examination immediately- I was on my period at the time as well. There were two patients in the waiting room- myself and a man. They assigned me a male doctor and him a female, which seemed stupid.

When I was in the examination room I had a full-on panic attack at the thought of being examined by the male dr and point blank refused and said I needed to see a female dr. Luckily he was nice and understanding and got the female dr for me instead. I'm so glad I did. I bled everywhere when she was examining me and I wouldn't have felt comfortable at all with the other dr. I had a Colposcopy followed by LLETZ years ago and it was a male dr who did those, he left instruments hanging out of me and all of it was just so horrible. I've also been in an abusive marriage and it's massively affected how I feel about men.

This isn't just about age- I'm 33- women's views and preferences should be respected whatever our age- it isn't just older women who feel like this. It should always be an option to have someone of the same sex providing intimate care and I'd refuse treatment if I couldn't have a female HCP, it's that much of an issue for me.

@WeatherSystems

To bring the thread back to its actual AIBU anyway, OP isn't asking if she's unreasonable to think her Aunt should have the right to request a female carer.

She's asking if she's unreasonable to think that all gynae words should automatically be staffed solely by women.

Which I think the majority of people would give a resounding YES to, while wholeheartedly agreeing that if a patient isn't comfortable with having care delivered by a male they should have the right to request a female if available.

I wouldn't give a resounding YES.

While it's unreasonable to expect female only nursing care on a gynae ward today - because that's not how things are currently set up - it's not at all unreasonable to think it would be a good idea and that we should be moving towards it.

Why not?

I agree with you @LangClegsInSpace.

I actually wonder why so many men want to do a job that they know a considerable proportion of the patients would want a female HCP to do. I would never have felt comfortable having a male midwife, I hated seeing a male gynaecologist and I ask for female HCP's for any intimate care nowadays.

I'm not accusing them of actually being abusive, unprofessional or unable to do the job but why would they even want to do a job when they know their presence is going to make a lot of women uncomfortable?

Lang, There was The Hospital For Women in London, staffed by women for women, its closed now. , Male nurses may have an interest in gynae or maternity, just because there are female nurses it doesnt mean this is an area they choose to work in. Would you suggest only Male nurses work on Male wards too. What about in a&e, assessment units, acute areas where patients need a catheter, personal care, washing. What about the rest of the staff, doctors, physiotherapists and ot who carry out washing and dressing assessments. All patients in every ward have the right to request the nurse of their choice but it cannot always be possible.

I don't think there are that many male HCA wanting to do the job - especially if they are short of male staff on male wards. They would probably prefer to work there. I suspect it has more to do with diversity and inclusion policies that are pushing male staff in to areas where there would be fewer, but ignoring the needs of the patients.

I must say that I would hate a male nurse helping me to shower, I feel sorry for your Aunt OP

@Tal45

After a gave birth I was stitched up by a man, I was on the gas and air and just told him to stitch it up tight, thought I'd practically be a virgin again :-D Didn't bother me at all that it was a man as he'd obviously seen it all before a million times.

I think it is very unreasonable to expect men to not work on certain wards.

Did you miss the vulnerable and elderly bit? Also the bit where she was upset? Shocking lack of empathy and compassion

That's probably correct @Melroses

I really wouldn't have wanted a male midwife though, and they obviously know they will be working solely with women. I wouldn't have wanted a male community midwife either. I needed a woman when I felt that vulnerable and was going through an experience unique to women.

@DogsSausages

Lang, There was The Hospital For Women in London, staffed by women for women, its closed now. , Male nurses may have an interest in gynae or maternity, just because there are female nurses it doesnt mean this is an area they choose to work in. Would you suggest only Male nurses work on Male wards too. What about in a&e, assessment units, acute areas where patients need a catheter, personal care, washing. What about the rest of the staff, doctors, physiotherapists and ot who carry out washing and dressing assessments. All patients in every ward have the right to request the nurse of their choice but it cannot always be possible.

Hurrah for HCP-centred care!

I'm not accusing them of actually being abusive, unprofessional or unable to do the job but why would they even want to do a job when they know their presence is going to make a lot of women uncomfortable?

I don’t understand why there are so many male gynaecologists either. I had the most horrendous experience with a male gyne on a ward where I was admitted as an emergency and completely violated by him and a few of his colleagues had no choice but to go along with it despite being very apologetic. I felt such intense rage that a group of men were trying to lord it over me without any understanding of what I was experiencing. I should have raised a complaint, but of course I didn’t. I couldn’t face dragging it all up afterwards. Before that I wouldn’t have been bothered by a male (had 2 great male doctors when I gave birth) but now I’d be very wary. There will be lots of women like me who never got up the strength to complain about these men and how they at best treat female patients with complete contempt and at worst assault if they think they can get away with it under the guise of offering medical aid.

Oh but @LangClegsInSpace I'm sure someone will be along to say that we should just be grateful to get free healthcare wasn't aware that it was actually free, thought national insurance was for something? so we shouldn't be entitled to make requests as to the sex of the HCP's looking after us.

@DeflatedGinDrinker

Yes YABU my son had a female nurse try to take his catheter out and it was stuck so a male nurse had a go and did it. Didn't know he could pick which sex he prefers tbh they both do the same job.

So you're answering on behalf of your son and Op's vulnerable Aunt? Excellent. Job done. Close the thread.

So what's the alternative if there are no female staff available and the patient cannot wait for someone to be drafted in or finish what they are doing.

@DingleyDel I'm sorry you went through such a horrible experience, it's entirely understandable how you now feel. Not that I think anyone should have to justify their reasons for requesting female HCP's.