AIBU to expect female only nurses on a gynae ward?

[PanamaPattie]

My vulnerable elderly aunt has recently had an hysterectomy for ovarian cancer. During a telephone call, she became very upset because she had her catheter taken out and was helped to shower by a male nurse. She didn't feel that she could complain as she was afraid of repercussions.

Am I being unreasonable to expect female only care on a gynae ward - considering the intimate and invasive nature of care?

@Thatsmydaughterinthewater

I don't think people realise that that would mean poorer care for all, if a proportion of the staff (in a stretched NHS) had to by default offer the alternative of a female clinician coming over and taking over instead.

Meanwhile female staff would be run ragged even more, doing additional work, while capable male staff members were sat twiddling their thumbs being paid.

Fine for people to be able to request a female nurse and one be provided if it's practical, absolutely not fine to codify that into some kind of policy that leads to the above scenario. I really don't think people think any of this through, do they?

I dont know that any ward is staffed by single sex staff now are they, female nurses work on Male surgical and urological wards, they always have done. Do you know if the nurse asked her if it was ok for him to take the catherer out, you would expect any nurse to ask this and also if she was happy for him to help her have a shower. If he didnt ask or went ahead without her permission then yes she can complain but I would expect a nurse to offer safe and compassionate care to all their patients. You can get in touch with the ward manager or PALS to ask who removed the catheter, it will be in her notes and highlight any issue but Male nurses should feel confident and supported to work in whatever speciality they want to.

Fine for people to be able to request a female nurse and one be provided if it's practical, absolutely not fine to codify that into some kind of policy that leads to the above scenario. I really don't think people think any of this through, do they?

The law and most trust policies do state that women should be able ask for female intimate care/medical care and outlines how this should be approached.

The attitude here seems to boil doing to tough shit women because:

• i'm fine with it and I don't care about anyone else
• its not convenient so put up and shut up

Yanbu to want a female member of staff to do intimate care if male staff make the patient uncomfortable but YABU to assume that the staff are mind readers who just know that the patient, who has made not a single objection to being cared for by a male member of staff nor has made any kind of request or even asked about the possibility of a female member of staff being available, is not happy with the male staff member being the one to provide the care.

For all you know if your aunt had said "Can I have a female nurse to help me shower?" then the male nurse would have had no issues with it and would have swapped with someone else, but she didn't I can understand not wanting to rock the boat or feeling uncomfortable but you can't then complain that she was made to feel that way if she told nobody about it for her entire stay.

@C8H10N4O2

Fine for people to be able to request a female nurse and one be provided if it's practical, absolutely not fine to codify that into some kind of policy that leads to the above scenario. I really don't think people think any of this through, do they?

The law and most trust policies do state that women should be able ask for female intimate care/medical care and outlines how this should be approached.

The attitude here seems to boil doing to tough shit women because:

• i'm fine with it and I don't care about anyone else
• its not convenient so put up and shut up

Have you got any evidence of a trust stating that their staff should do what that poster recommended? Every time a male carer or clinician approaches a female patient, they should ask if that's okay and offer a female instead?

I've made it clear that people have every right to ask for a carer or clinician of their preferred gender/sex, even though the right to ask doesn't automatically make one available.

@C8H10N4O2

Fine for people to be able to request a female nurse and one be provided if it's practical, absolutely not fine to codify that into some kind of policy that leads to the above scenario. I really don't think people think any of this through, do they?

The law and most trust policies do state that women should be able ask for female intimate care/medical care and outlines how this should be approached.

The attitude here seems to boil doing to tough shit women because:

• i'm fine with it and I don't care about anyone else
• its not convenient so put up and shut up

You’re absolutely right. This thread is so disturbing. Especially the comments from medical professionals who believe women should shut up and put up , just “get over it”

Oh, I think I've been misunderstood.

When I said it wasn't fine to codify it into policy I wasn't referring to the right to request a specific sex or gender caregiver. I was referring to the suggestion given by a poster that every time a male staff member approaches a female patient he should ask if they're okay with a man and offer a woman instead. That isn't practicable, for many reasons (some of which I've explained). I can see why my paragraph didn't make that clear.

She can request one. I've always seen a male doctor for smears, any pregnancy checks, my children's births. Didn't bother me in the slightest. And he's a very popular doctor, very highly respected. So YABU to suggest that men shouldn't be able to work in this field. My experience with my male doctor has been wonderful.

(my point isn't 'I'm fine with it so everyone else should be too', as a PP said upthread, but rather than men who work in this field are often wonderful, caring and professional so OPs suggestion/implication that men shouldn't work in this field is not reasonable. Also, the option to request a female doctor/nurse is there. society can't be expected to change because a few people might not be assertive enough to ask for one. Instead, surely the small number of individuals who lack confidence or whatever it is that stops them speaking up in situations like this, need to work on this).

Well, I must say, I'm happy for you all that you were never old or vulnerable or shy or afraid of speaking up or just unaware that you could. I hope it all stays fine you.

To bring the thread back to its actual AIBU anyway, OP isn't asking if she's unreasonable to think her Aunt should have the right to request a female carer.

She's asking if she's unreasonable to think that all gynae words should automatically be staffed solely by women.

Which I think the majority of people would give a resounding YES to, while wholeheartedly agreeing that if a patient isn't comfortable with having care delivered by a male they should have the right to request a female if available.

@Mummyoflittledragon And where is your compassion and empathy for a hard working professional who is being torn down on a thread.

@PleasantBirthday

Well, I must say, I'm happy for you all that you were never old or vulnerable or shy or afraid of speaking up or just unaware that you could. I hope it all stays fine you.

What's your solution here?

That patients over a certain age be automatically asked whether they mind a male carer and offered a female one?

That wouldn't work for many shy people who felt too awkward or unable to say that they wanted a woman.

So what's the answer? Only women give personal care to every woman, in case they're shy or vulnerable, as standard? Despite the reality that this would reduce the availability of clinical care and personal care to half of the population, many of whom don't care either way?

I'm not trying to goad you here, I'm genuinely wondering what you believe the solution is, if I'm missing a perfectly good one that's staring me in the face.

@WeatherSystems

To bring the thread back to its actual AIBU anyway, OP isn't asking if she's unreasonable to think her Aunt should have the right to request a female carer.

She's asking if she's unreasonable to think that all gynae words should automatically be staffed solely by women.

Which I think the majority of people would give a resounding YES to, while wholeheartedly agreeing that if a patient isn't comfortable with having care delivered by a male they should have the right to request a female if available.

Exactly this.

Everything should be as it is. Wards shouldn't be staffed by only females, and patients should be able to request females.

It's a shame that some people might not feel confident enough to ask for something they want, but it isn't the hospital or any staff members fault.

@hawkehurstgang

The only real solutions I can think of is to ask patients at intake if there's a preference for the sex of the clinician, and to make it clear that while they'll do their best to accommodate that, it isn't a guarantee. If a man states he prefers a man on a ward staffed primarily by women then it won't always be possible.

Or rather than ask if there's a preference, let people know that if they DO have one, they should communicate it to staff. Rather than get them to answer if they have one or not.

The latter seems most sensible, it doesn't account for patients who feel too shy to say anything, but you can only do so much. You can't read minds or force people to share info they're not comfortable sharing. OP is BU though to want wards to be female only and hopefully she can see that by now. The quality of care would be worse if you weren't allowing male doctors, nurses, carers or consultants in, purely based on the fact that some patients, who already have the right to request this, might feel uncomfortable.

[quote HOkieCOkie]@Mummyoflittledragon And where is your compassion and empathy for a hard working professional who is being torn down on a thread.[/quote]
Nobody is tearing down hardworking professional men.

Truly compassionate, caring male nurses will understand the issues here and wouldn't want to make a woman feel uncomfortable - surely?

It's an interesting topic anyway. The majority of clinicians want their patients to feel uncomfortable. I think it's difficult as a patient to recognise that these people do this job day in day out for years on end, and difficult for clinicians and carers to remember that as routine as it is for them, for an individual patient it might be very significant or feel very invasive.

@WeatherSystems - I don't think the system needs to be changed but I'm astonished by the general lack of empathy for people. It's great to be assertive and aware of your rights but to say that other people should be like you or they don't get to feel what they feel is wrong. I also think it's difficult when assertive or informed people think that the information they have about their rights is common knowledge - it may not be.

To feel comfortable*

[quote PleasantBirthday]@WeatherSystems - I don't think the system needs to be changed but I'm astonished by the general lack of empathy for people. It's great to be assertive and aware of your rights but to say that other people should be like you or they don't get to feel what they feel is wrong. I also think it's difficult when assertive or informed people think that the information they have about their rights is common knowledge - it may not be.[/quote]
Oh, I agree with you. I'm fine receiving any kind of care from a man or woman, but totally recognise others might not be. And in some cases it might actually dissuade someone from seeking care. Any nurse worth their salt would rather a woman attend a cervical screening with a female nurse than decide not to attend at all if the only option was a male nurse. It's really not about the feelings of the clinician.

It's an alien, uncomfortable thing to sit on a table and expose your genitals to a complete stranger under a bright lamp, or to be washed by someone else. How can anyone, even people who don't feel a twinge of discomfort, not recognise that somebody might feel less uncomfortable with another woman doing it rather than a man?

I would say that EVERY female patient should be helped with showering by a female nurse/HCA. If chaperones are considered the norm for male HCPs giving intimate care I am baffled as to why it's fine for a woman to be left alone naked with a man while he washes her.

I think there are some absolutely fucked up attitudes to women's boundaries on this thread. Thank God most of them don't seem to come from actual HCPs. I'm starting to see why so many women don't give a shit about self-ID.

[quote HOkieCOkie]@Mummyoflittledragon And where is your compassion and empathy for a hard working professional who is being torn down on a thread.[/quote]
God forbid the men’s feelings are hurt!
Women, ignore your discomfort. Disregard your boundaries. Get over your traumatic experiences.
Just be a good girls, take your clothes off and shut your mouths.

I'm so disturbed by women on this thread who are showing zero empathy, compassion, or even basic understanding of the situation. Some of you are HCPs yourself. It's genuinely shocking.

It's awful for your aunt, OP. Sounds like she has been left feeling very frightened and upset by the experience. For everyone saying 'a nurse is a nurse' maybe reflect on some of the qualities that nurses (male and female) are supposed to have: sensitivity to patient's needs, an empathetic attitude, and compassion. None of those are in evidence in the 'care' given by this person.

I would never want intimate care to be given by a male. And I agree that gynae wards should be staffed by females wherever possible. It creeps me out that so many men want to go into gynaecology in the first place.

Completely agree that she should have been given the choice rather than being made to feel uncomfortable. That's not providing a reasonable level of care.

But also to echo other posters' comments on male gynae doctors and nurses. I had to visit one a few weeks ago and I chose to see the same man again because he was so kind and lovely the previous time I'd seen him. But above all, he is one of only two people (the other one also male) that has done that type of examination in a painless way and I've had some shockers during smears. I didn't have a chaperone either as I'd rather have the minimum number of people present for what is a rather undignified procedure.

Appreciate that everyone is different and no one should have to accept having a male doctor or nurse for this type of thing. But it would also be a shame if male doctors felt excluded from going into gynaecology related areas.

I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect only female nurses even on a gynaecologist ward. I had a male midwife examine me and was fine with it. I would have loved him to be there through the whole birth as he was funny!

I do however think people should be allowed to have the choice. She shouldn’t be concerned about the consequences of saying she prefers a woman.

There are plenty of situations where another women has to be present, such a in the police if a woman is being patted down etc…

I’m not surprised she was scared to say anything, the way things are going in today’s society etc about whether you’re allowed to say man/women. It’s crackers and your aunts feelings and wishes should be considered above offending someone.

Hope she’s ok