AIBU to expect female only nurses on a gynae ward?

[PanamaPattie]

My vulnerable elderly aunt has recently had an hysterectomy for ovarian cancer. During a telephone call, she became very upset because she had her catheter taken out and was helped to shower by a male nurse. She didn't feel that she could complain as she was afraid of repercussions.

Am I being unreasonable to expect female only care on a gynae ward - considering the intimate and invasive nature of care?

It ought to be a mark of professionalism to be adaptable and responsive to invidividual need.
I understand logistical reasons why that can't always happen, but it should always be an aspiration for any organisation claiming to be a Service.

The regimented and inflexible approach might be lauded as the necessary consequence of efficiency, but without compassion and empathy with patients, there cannot be trust. Patients end up feeling liking a financial proposition and dehumanised and their health care simply a matter of financial viability.

In truth, every life has a price, but they could do a great deal more to make it less obvious.

I mentioned the example of IDVAs yesterday and I'm not 100% sure but was under the impression that IDVAs have to be female- it was specified in lots of the job adverts I saw.

I honestly think it should be the same for working in gynae.

Should have also said- for the exact same reasons as the need for IDVAs to be female.

@LemonRoses

I find it quite bizarre and concerning that women excuse this appalling lack of proper care for an elderly, vulnerable women. Even more worrying that some of those making excuses claim to be nurses.

Well said.

@C8**@C8H10N4O2@LemonRoses, I wasn't arguing for male radiographers to do mammograms - quite the opposite! I just don't get the double standard.

@junipertree2

‘I just don’t get the double standard’.

Still? After reading the responses from women on this thread along with what we know about existing as a woman in terms of patriarchy, misogyny, sexual assault, abuse and the global epidemic of male violence against women.

Have I misunderstood your post or do you genuinely not get it?

It isn't a double standard.

People are advocating the same respect for men's wishes too.
Nobody is criticising male nurses (far from it), merely wanting to make intimate health care as respectful and trauma free as is practical, for both women AND men. Obviously the general focus of the thread is towards women, but the same principle applies... with intimate healthcare, personal boundaries are especially important.

It just so happens that some women are especially nervous because of men's actions in general. Nothing to do with the specific HCA, just a general pattern of behaviour as a group.

It's pretty damn easy to understand really. If you had a fear of needles, you'd expect someone to be extra mindful of that and try minimise any upset. Why shouldn't it be the same (and more) when someone requests a same sex HCA, especially in more intimate situations, where virtually everybody agrees, respect and dignity are paramount?

@LangClegsInSpace some of that twitter discussion is depressing, so many male HCPs who just don’t get it. How can they be so ignorant?

There was also some disturbing comments from a midwife saying a male anaesthetist she worked with would often catheterise female patients before a c-section despite it not being a required part of his role, apparently he would only do it for ‘certain patients’. She said she raised concerned but was ignored 🤢

Perhaps some HCP's believe their robotic immunity and impartiality is an attribute, but fail to grasp how that is certainly not the case for patients which is a fundamental flaw.

There IS a time for utterly clinical and logical thinking, but that's not in the midst of delicate and intimate personal care.

I feel a lot of people on this thread will be having a big shock to the system as they get older and start needing to go into hospital or care homes etc.
I've been a registered nurse for many years and currently a registered manager in a local care home.
Health care has changed beyond recognition over recent years, the NHS and care homes are facing the biggest recruitment crisis in history.
We are all lucky to be able to receive any form off care weather that be from a female or a male, as trust me they're aren't many people out there willing to do the job anymore.
In an ideal world males would look after the men and females after the woman, this just isn't possible anymore

@dewisant2020

I feel a lot of people on this thread will be having a big shock to the system as they get older and start needing to go into hospital or care homes etc. I've been a registered nurse for many years and currently a registered manager in a local care home. Health care has changed beyond recognition over recent years, the NHS and care homes are facing the biggest recruitment crisis in history. We are all lucky to be able to receive any form off care weather that be from a female or a male, as trust me they're aren't many people out there willing to do the job anymore. In an ideal world males would look after the men and females after the woman, this just isn't possible anymore

How patronising. No wonder people have such a poor experience in hospitals and care homes a lot of the time if that is the attitude from the people working within. We are not 'lucky' to receive any form of care- we are let down time and time and again by a poor system and poor governments that don't centre patient welfare and as ever- women are always bottom of the pile.

It doesn't 'come as a shock' to many people that the care they receive is poor, that patient dignity and comfort don't seem to matter anymore, and that the health service is woefully mismanaged and underfunded. I've consistently voted for the political party who I think will actually give a toss about the NHS although they are now as useless as the actual government. It's something that is so important to me- make no mistake that people are all too aware of what the health service is like and would like to effect change but it is incredibly hard.

A healthy, forward looking organisation acknowledges it's weaknesses, and works to address them, accepting that something it can take a long time to resolve.

One resigned to failure, settles for inadequacy and shrugs its shoulders.

This seeps down into a lack of morale, and a diminishing number of applicants to work in the field.

I totally accept the situation is probably poor. What isn't acceptable is the assumption that we're resigned to that fate forever.

@dewisant2020

I feel a lot of people on this thread will be having a big shock to the system as they get older and start needing to go into hospital or care homes etc. I've been a registered nurse for many years and currently a registered manager in a local care home. Health care has changed beyond recognition over recent years, the NHS and care homes are facing the biggest recruitment crisis in history. We are all lucky to be able to receive any form off care weather that be from a female or a male, as trust me they're aren't many people out there willing to do the job anymore. In an ideal world males would look after the men and females after the woman, this just isn't possible anymore

Would hate to have you nurse my daughter, mother, grandmother. If you write like this, with utter disdain for women, I can only imagine what your bedside manner is like.

@MidClrgs I'm not going to argue with you nor anyone on this post, I'm simply being honest that there is a massive shortage of health care professionals in the UK for various reasons. Like I said in an ideal work men would look after men and woman look after woman, we simply don't have the staff to always make that possible, if you'd rather I leave your family member in their own urine or feaces because I don't have a female to help them then I suggest you get your priorities in order.
And for what it's worth I've been a nurse for over 25 years and do my absolute best for everyone I've looked after over the years, instead of trying to blame us for the way things are you should encourage people to put pressure on the government to properly fund health and social care

My Dad was a nurse on an elderly mental health ward before he retired (15 years ago) even then they rightly had a policy of asking Female patients (or their closest relatives if they couldn’t consent) if they would be comfier with a female nurse for any sort of intimate care. The same was offered to males if they preferred a Male Nurse.

It’s so easy for dignity to be lost when your elderly and in hospital and the staff should do whatever they can to make the whole process as easy and as dignified as possible.

[quote dewisant2020]@MidClrgs I'm not going to argue with you nor anyone on this post, I'm simply being honest that there is a massive shortage of health care professionals in the UK for various reasons. Like I said in an ideal work men would look after men and woman look after woman, we simply don't have the staff to always make that possible, if you'd rather I leave your family member in their own urine or feaces because I don't have a female to help them then I suggest you get your priorities in order.
And for what it's worth I've been a nurse for over 25 years and do my absolute best for everyone I've looked after over the years, instead of trying to blame us for the way things are you should encourage people to put pressure on the government to properly fund health and social care[/quote]
And that's part of the issue right there.

In your medical opinion (which is fine), it's second nature to you to assume leaving someone in their own urine and/or faeces is not tolerable, and so cleaning up takes priority over the patients wishes.
I can totally see why most people would think that.

However, the patient DOES still have wishes, and it may be that they would rather face the indignity of not being clean than (in their minds) the even greater indignity of that, plus having a man deal with it.

I think what people are saying is - they understand that logistics probably are difficult, but we might also be losing sight of the cost of that to individuals, particular those who are extra sensitive towards opposite sex care.

I honestly don't think people are blaming individuals (not on the whole, bar a few bad apples).

@VerticalHorizon

A healthy, forward looking organisation acknowledges it's weaknesses, and works to address them, accepting that something it can take a long time to resolve.

One resigned to failure, settles for inadequacy and shrugs its shoulders.

This seeps down into a lack of morale, and a diminishing number of applicants to work in the field.

I totally accept the situation is probably poor. What isn't acceptable is the assumption that we're resigned to that fate forever.

Perfectly put.

It's disgraceful that people will just shrug their shoulders on this.

I really find it disappointing that so many women don't seem to understand or care how much more vulnerable we are in so many situations.

I am utter ashamed of the typos! I am on mobile and it is killing me.

You don't have to be a woman to understand the issue. To feel it, sure, only a woman could truly feel the way a woman does, but it is a pretty simple concept even for us men to grasp.

Fantastic post!

That's to @VerticalHorizon

She can certainly ask for female only personal help but depending on staff availability she might not be able to receive it.

It’s completely unreasonable to expect only female staff.

It’s completely unreasonable to expect only female staff.

Why? At least articulate why you think it's unreasonable.

Since there is precedent for female only care with regard to mammography, there must therefore be an acknowledgement that there are circumstances in which same sex is the appropriate option (where possible).

Given that, it leads to a conclusion that first we must acknowledge the primary need for same sex care, then worry about to resource it. It is completely the wrong idea to look at resourcing first then declare same sex care as unnecessary or untenable as a result.

It is perfectly ok to acknowledge the need, then declare that the need cannot be fully met in current conditions, due to lack of resource. This still accepts the basic tenet that same sex care is the most favourable option.

If there was a treatment for cancer, but so expensive to administer that not all could receive it. We would not simply rest with the losses of life. We would be working to overcome the cost, or reduce the price somehow.

The same should be true of patient preference.

We should always be honest about the position we are currently in, but also honest about the perfect day scenario, and be striving towards it.

The perfect scenario would be the preferred chosen option for both men and women.
If that cannot be achieved today, then it is clear that the needs of women outweigh those of men with regard to same sex care. Why? Because it is more likely that women have suffered trauma at the hands of men, or deem men to be a threat to their safety or dignity. Even religiously, it is more likely that a woman's modesty should be protected than a man's.

It is a bit of a 'no brained' really.

And if we can't even get that far today, we should at least be explaining why, and be as humble and apologetic as possible when we are asking people to give up some pretty personal misgivings.

'Sorry love, we are busy as fuck' doesn't quite cut the mustard.

@VerticalHorizon

I completely understand your point but I worry about its limits. My old auntie (now dead) was a product of her time/upbringing and held some quite racist views. I’m sure she’d have been uncomfortable with a black nurse attending to her, but that’s not to say we should be giving people like that a choice!

[quote Cheshirewife]@VerticalHorizon

I completely understand your point but I worry about its limits. My old auntie (now dead) was a product of her time/upbringing and held some quite racist views. I’m sure she’d have been uncomfortable with a black nurse attending to her, but that’s not to say we should be giving people like that a choice![/quote]
That’s completely different.

Males commit a huge majority of sex crimes and violent crimes. Females have legitimate reasons to fear unknown males when they are in vulnerable situations. It’s a completely false equivalent to compare it to race. Unless you believe believe black people pose as much of a risk to white people as males do to females?