AIBU to expect female only nurses on a gynae ward?

[PanamaPattie]

My vulnerable elderly aunt has recently had an hysterectomy for ovarian cancer. During a telephone call, she became very upset because she had her catheter taken out and was helped to shower by a male nurse. She didn't feel that she could complain as she was afraid of repercussions.

Am I being unreasonable to expect female only care on a gynae ward - considering the intimate and invasive nature of care?

Have a chat with them on her behalf & rell them she felt uncomfortable altho do point out it is no reflection on the male nurse himself, simply her preference. It is totally understandable given her age & staff will get it.

A lot of heartfelt replies here, which is fine... but the OP asked....

AIBU to expect female only nurses on a gynae ward...

And I do think they are BU.

@SNKB14

Soontobe60

“My MIL was very frightened when a male HCP came into her room in the care home where she was having an assessment and proceeded to shower her. In fact she begged my DH to take her home. She hadn’t been seen naked by anyone apart from her husband in 55 years, and was only seen by female midwives when she gave birth. She also only ever saw female GPS for any intimate exams. Why should she have to just accept a male presence when she’s at her most vulnerable?”

I don’t believe I said she should accept it ; I said that she is absolutely within her right to ask for a female member of staff…
Male nurses/HCAs are quite the norm now in all areas of the hospital and are competent in all tasks for both sexes, as female nurses/HCAs are competent in tasks for both sexes

Patient choice 1000% if they choose a worker of their own sex, but they wouldn’t know if they weren’t informed

Who wouldn’t know? The patient? The nurse? It should be automatic that where an intimate procedure is being carried out on a patient by a HCP of the opposite sex, the onus is on the HVP to ensure the patient feels comfortable with them carrying out the procedure. The HCP shouldn’t wait for the patient to bring it up.

I find it difficult to believe that so many posters cannot see:

a. Why women may feel more vulnerable than men receiving intimate care from the opposite sex

b. That there is a difference between receiving emergency care, surgery or chaperoned treatment and receiving intimate care

c. That just because they are ok with something, everybody else should too.

Boundaries. They are really important. It's about respect. They are yours and nobody should cross them without your consent.

some men get embarrassed by female personal care, but are also felt not in a position to be able to say so

@AbsolutelyPatsy

some men get embarrassed by female personal care, but are also felt not in a position to be able to say so

And?

@XingMing

I do not think it's all a mess of pursuing equality or predatory men. I firmly believe that nurses are nurses, and given the shortage of nurses, they should be deployed wherever they are needed. But, for elderly geriatric ladies, I think female carers would be more comforting.

What about my 14 year old niece? Would she qualify for a female HCP when she needed washing post op and her mum wasn't there? Or would you expect her to be ok with a strange man washing her?

How is anyone to know when male/female has become a matter of semantics and politics rather than biology?

I'm with your aunt. Saying a nurse is a nurse is true but the patients' feelings matter too and there is no reason not to listen to what the patient wants. A few years ago I had a pelvic floor examination by a man and I was so uncomfortable. I felt like how could he possibly understand this, it was just awful.

You always get lots of posters being weirdly defensive of male HCPs on these types of threads. When we talk about women not wanting to be around males in non-medical situations such as public toilets, showers, communal changing areas, posters overwhelmingly agree with ‘dignity’ and ‘privacy’ cited as equally important to safety. Why does this suddenly not apply in a medical context?

YAB a bit U. Speaking as an NHS nurse it's not practical to staff a ward entirely with females (often you just get whoever you can these days), and in my experience a lot of patients aren't bothered on the gender of their nurse as long as they do a good job. If your aunt wanted a female nurse for intimate care that's absolutely fine, but if she never voiced a preference for a female nurse it's a bit unrealistic to expect the staff to be mind-readers.

@DamnUserName21

Why is the onus on the woman to object rather than for the male to ask permission?

Why is it assumed the nurse didn't ask permission?

When an HCP provides personal care, they will ask the patient if they want to receive it. Or the patient may, in turn, ask for personal care. Either way, the HCP will not just rip the bedcovers off! The patient consenting to care clearly knowing the HCP is male is consenting to being assisted by that person.
The patient (or relevant others) can state their preferences before the care goes ahead or specify this on the handover notes, however, it is always subject to availability.

Many people would find it difficult to say no if the man is actually standing in front of them ready to do/asking if they can do the procedure (don't want to cause trouble, don't want to look like a prude, don't want him to think that you think he is a sexual predator, don't want to cause inconvenience, don't want to look old-fashioned, don't want to be called a bigot etc). I don't think a man asking a patient whether she is happy for him to do it is a good way to ascertain if a woman would like a female health care provider for intimate are. The woman needs to be asked (ideally not by the relevant male HCP) directly, would you prefer a woman to do this? Only if they say "yes" should mention be made of any delay caused by that request etc, so that the patient has the opportunity to change their mind back with that new information.

If a woman isn't qualified or available, then there should be a female chaperone (at my local hospital there appears to be a chaperone automatically, irrespective of the sex of the HCP) and the patient should still be given the facts and allowed to decide whether she is happy.

Fucks sake there are some obtuse people on this thread. It’s not a sickening lack of boundaries it’s not a lack of respect for women’s rights - all of you going on about how people who have said YABU lack empathy need to give your heads a wobble and reread the OP.

She didn’t say ‘should people be able to request intimate care be carried out by a same sex practitioner’. It is within every patient’s right to feel comfortable with their standard of care and to request a female practitioner. None of us have said that shouldn’t be the case. The OP has said that there should be no male staff on any gynae ward, as though they are all predators and none of them should be there. Which is bullshit.

ChocolateDeficitDisorder as you DH has had years of experience and in a senior role he would I expect understand the dynamics between patient and HCP and how some are vulnerable and the vulnerability that many women feel around males

Of course, I trained as a nurse along with him - we met at Uni.

This doesn't change my question. How does it work if he is the most appropriate nurse for the task in the area? What if we choose to move to a small Scottish island and he's the only nurse on call? (this actually can be the case).

We have to get past this, as do the general public. We would be outraged at racism and religious bias against care staff but we find this acceptable? There have been male doctors forever and male nurses are growing in number. They're professionals - treat them as such.

All the people saying YABU, I do wish you'd go an have a look at the GMC disciplinary records.

See how many there are for sexual assault. See how many of them are women, and how many are men.

All these male doctors, highly trained professionals who had a perfectly clean record.

Until a woman (usually) had the courage to report them for - what was unlikely to be the first instance of - sexual assault on a vulnerable patient.

NotAllMen, but almost-always men.

And even without sexual assault, the truth is that the male gaze when it's an intimate area can be intimidating in itself, and women quite often, quite understandably, prefer the (significantly) statistically safer sex of HCP, and the one less likely to be viewing them through the uncomfortable lense of the male gaze.

I think we should all be happy we are treated for nothing.

Its not free, we pay for it. Its not some charity where we should doff our caps gratefully not to be dying in the gutter - this attitude is part of the problem. We should appreciate good care, we should still hold poor care to account.

An 82 yr old woman in hospital for cancer treatment on a gynae ward should, like any other woman, be asked discretely if they are comfortable with intimate care from a male as should any female patient.

She should not be in the position of having the nurse say "I'm John, I'm about to bath you, do you have a problem with that?" and her having to say "no I'm not happy" when alone, unwell and vulnerable with no visitors allowed due to covid restrictions.

She may have to wait a little longer for a female HCA but that should be her choice. Intimate care the same as a doctor's examination with a chaperone present, that said I've been asked if I'm ok with a male doctor before now.

The insistence that male patient/female nurse and female patient/male nurse is the same dynamic is either willfully misogynistic or terminally stupid.

I’d want a female nurse too. My only real experience of a male nurse was not positive. It was on a children’s ward over night, when my four year old was in hospital, she had to be woken every few hours for medicine, the male nurse was rough, and unpleasant, and I was positively quite wary of him.
He should have been supervised, as he was unpleasant.
Saying that, at the time, and it was over 15 years ago, the night staff were a disgrace, running up and down the hall, screeching and laughing, while children were ill all around. They were damned disgraceful,
Fortunately the day staff were fabulous.
I was shocked, and with some other horrible experiences in hospitals, I’m not surprised, only saddened at your Aunts experience.

Intimate care the same as a doctor's examination with a chaperone present

Should be "intimate care is NOT the same as a doctor's examination"

It's a legal requirement that she can request a female nurse if she wants one. Sounds awful for her but this is more her not knowing her rights than a problem with male gynaecology nurses.

@PanamaPattie

I'm horrified that my aunt, who I would describe as vulnerable because she is 82, has cancer and was on her own in hospital with no visitors - due to COVID - should be put in a position were she felt too scared to ask for a female nurse and the fact that the male nurse did not notice her possible distress.

I share your horror, but have been on the receiving end of this type of 'care'.

It is easy for posters on here who do not share her distress about this to say she should have asked for a different nurse. It's easy to say when you're not the one feeling frightened and vulnerable and unaware you are allowed to say no to nursing staff.

Those posters should perhaps try to empathise with somebody who does not feel ambivalent about being touched by a male when feeling vulnerable due to surgery and frailty, and who has not been asked for her consent nor had it explained that she had a choice and the right to ask for a different nurse.

On most NHS wards the staff will commonly walk up to patients and start carrying out procedures without pausing to seek consent or to consider whether the patient has consented. Even though they are legally required to do so.

I can easily imagine that this nurse also arrived at the op's aunt's bedside and commenced these procedures without giving your aunt the opportunity to process what was about to happen and whether or not she had a choice about whether it proceeded.

This is the experience of patients across the country. It is commonplace. There may be occasional exceptions - 'not all nurses are like that' etc etc etc - but it is what has happened here and it is what happens every day to patients because staff see them as 'tasks' not 'humans'.

Speak to PALS and make a fuss on your aunt's behalf so this is not repeated. If she is too scared to speak up for herself then she needs an advocate. Being quiet and amenable in hospital gets you walked over and ignored. You have to be assertive and firm until you are listened to.

Gosh. YABVU.

Our midwife was male (midhusband?), as was the lovely gynae consultant messing around extensively with my insides to help me get pregnant.

Are you really saying that qualified clinicians should be banned from working in certain areas of healthcare because of their sex? Surely you’re not saying that. Use your brain cells.

I think it's important as HCPs we are mindful of it but sometimes it gets overlooked. I'm a HCP (but don't do intimate care) and we will always accommodate sex-based preferences (either see me or my boss) due to the sensitive nature of our roles, however we don't ask as standard and tend to just delegate who has time/more appropriate for the work.

@ChocolateDeficitDisorder

ChocolateDeficitDisorder as you DH has had years of experience and in a senior role he would I expect understand the dynamics between patient and HCP and how some are vulnerable and the vulnerability that many women feel around males

Of course, I trained as a nurse along with him - we met at Uni.

This doesn't change my question. How does it work if he is the most appropriate nurse for the task in the area? What if we choose to move to a small Scottish island and he's the only nurse on call? (this actually can be the case).

We have to get past this, as do the general public. We would be outraged at racism and religious bias against care staff but we find this acceptable? There have been male doctors forever and male nurses are growing in number. They're professionals - treat them as such.

Women don’t need to ignore their discomfort or “get over” their boundaries because your husband may feel his professional authority has been questioned.

I've had male doctors do vaginal examinations many times over years due to pregnancies and related problems, which I was fine with, but I don't think I'd be comfortable being showered by a male. Something about being fully naked and it seeming more intimate, rather than medical. That's just the way I feel about it. I think it should be just women who do this with female patients, though I can see why it's not, due to staffing issues.

Why should a hospital change their staffing based solely on your views?

If I need treatment, I genuinely couldn't care less about the sex or gender of the clinician.