AIBU to expect female only nurses on a gynae ward?

[PanamaPattie]

My vulnerable elderly aunt has recently had an hysterectomy for ovarian cancer. During a telephone call, she became very upset because she had her catheter taken out and was helped to shower by a male nurse. She didn't feel that she could complain as she was afraid of repercussions.

Am I being unreasonable to expect female only care on a gynae ward - considering the intimate and invasive nature of care?

@LangClegsInSpace

Some posters here not only lack empathy but also have very little understanding of consent and the right to have boundaries.

This is especially worrying on a parenting site. What are you teaching your children - especially your girls?

Agree. It’s making me feel sick. God forbid men should ever be expected to have an ounce of empathy for women, and ask permission sensitively, before touching her.

@AnnaMagnani

Nurse is a nurse.

If she didn't want her catheter taken out by a male nurse she could have said so before he started.

This is an old and vulnerable lady. Have some compassion. Would you say the same to your grandma if she was upset about this. She will come from a generation where her husband would be the only man to ever see her naked. I don’t blame her for being upset, I wouldn’t want some bloke touching my genitals whether he was a nurse or not.

You get lazy people on all wards but don't assume all nurses and hcas are like that, you'll know how is working they generally have sweat running down their faces and bright red faces, trust me I'm one that is forever angry at my coworkers lack of work ethic, I think they woke up one morning and said I want to be a nurse or carer and that was it. They infuriate me no end, a swift kick up with arse they need and should not call themselves nurses or carers ever. Lazy fkers should be their title.

I do not think it's all a mess of pursuing equality or predatory men. I firmly believe that nurses are nurses, and given the shortage of nurses, they should be deployed wherever they are needed. But, for elderly geriatric ladies, I think female carers would be more comforting.

Can’t believe people are writing yabu. As a female nurse when we have patients requiring self care or anything as intrusive as that we try have female nurses for female patients and male nurses for male patients. If no female nurse available then a female csw or student chaperoning (as long as patient happy with this). It’s a shame she felt unable to ask perhaps you could call the ward and say to them for future reference she would prefer female staff for anything like that

I think for all those talking about male surgeons, personally I think there is a huge difference between someone performing a surgical procedure in a room with a bunch of other people and someone performing intimate personal care. I had no issues having a male perform my c section, but I would be a lot less comfortable with a male washing me.

Wherever possible patients should be able to express their preference and have it granted. If there's only one male surgeon who can perform a particular procedure in the region then a female might not be possible, but other options like having a chaperone/female nurses are possible. And more effort should be made to ensure the patient is ok with opposite sex personal/intimate care. It doesn't have to be a massive thing but making sure people feel they have an opportunity to consent or refuse is important.

When I needed an internal exam during pregnancy the doctor (male) immediately asked if I'd like a chaperone. That's always been my experience of male doctors tbh (I've probably been lucky)

It's a shame she didn't feel able to request a female nurse. We said at my mum's care home she would prefer female carers.

Why is the onus on the woman to object rather than for the male to ask permission?

Why is it assumed the nurse didn't ask permission?

When an HCP provides personal care, they will ask the patient if they want to receive it. Or the patient may, in turn, ask for personal care. Either way, the HCP will not just rip the bedcovers off! The patient consenting to care clearly knowing the HCP is male is consenting to being assisted by that person.
The patient (or relevant others) can state their preferences before the care goes ahead or specify this on the handover notes, however, it is always subject to availability.

My DH is in the unusual position of being a Community Charge Nurse/Team Leader. He's also dark-skinned in a predominantly white community.

He's the qualified DN for a small practice along with his other role and is responsible for carrying out assessments and treatment of both men and women.

Who would do his job if the female patients didn't want him there? Thankfully, it happens very rarely, but how would it work if lots of ladies said that they didn't want a male nurse?

He's qualified as a nurse, completed a post-grad diploma and a masters as specialist nurse, has a clean PVG. What more does he have to do to be trusted around women, or any other patient for that matter?

What happens if an all male ambulance crew arrive at the scene of an accident and have to give care to a lady? Do we send them away or wait for a female chaperone?

We can't blame any man for the actions of other men, just as we can't blame women for what women do.

I don't think the issue here is the actual male nurse.

The issue (to my mind) is that where possible, the choice should be offered, or a preference at least taken into account with consideration.

Clearly, resources are not unlimited, so it's simply not always going to be possible to accommodate every preference, but with an elderly lady, at least additional consideration can be made.

It may well be that if a male nurse repeatedly asks patients if they'd prefer a female nurse, he'd be accused of trying to dodge work. The 'system' needs to address the issue rather than the individual nurse.

YANBU. Your poor aunt x

She should have been asked first, in a way she understood (if she lacks capacity in any way).

For all those posting about male gynaecologists - they usually have chaperones available for examinations. Same with GPs. I wouldn't expect a woman to be one-on-one in an intimate situation with a male HCP. It protects the woman, and it also protects the male HCP.

It should not be a problem for a woman to have a female HCP, especially if as posted the male HCPs are thin on the ground when men need them.

I have been in too many iffy situations with male GPs and would not be surprised if the Aunt hasn't too at some point.

@DamnUserName21

Why is the onus on the woman to object rather than for the male to ask permission?

Why is it assumed the nurse didn't ask permission?

When an HCP provides personal care, they will ask the patient if they want to receive it. Or the patient may, in turn, ask for personal care. Either way, the HCP will not just rip the bedcovers off! The patient consenting to care clearly knowing the HCP is male is consenting to being assisted by that person.
The patient (or relevant others) can state their preferences before the care goes ahead or specify this on the handover notes, however, it is always subject to availability.

I’m not assuming that, I’m asking in response to the people suggesting the onus is on the woman to ask.

As for the rest, maybe that’s how it should be done, but it’s not always how it IS done. We all know this.

These threads bother me because somewhere along the line is the assumption that everyone should suck it up because the NHS is overwhelmed, there isn't enough staff, whatever. It seems that no one is allowed any dignity any more

It is not hard for a HCP of whatever sex to say Hi I'm whoever, I'm here to do whatever it is and it might be a little uncomfortable and is that OK with you? If you'd rather I didn't do x I can see if there's another HCP available but you may have to wait a while

@ChocolateDeficitDisorder

My DH is in the unusual position of being a Community Charge Nurse/Team Leader. He's also dark-skinned in a predominantly white community.

He's the qualified DN for a small practice along with his other role and is responsible for carrying out assessments and treatment of both men and women.

Who would do his job if the female patients didn't want him there? Thankfully, it happens very rarely, but how would it work if lots of ladies said that they didn't want a male nurse?

He's qualified as a nurse, completed a post-grad diploma and a masters as specialist nurse, has a clean PVG. What more does he have to do to be trusted around women, or any other patient for that matter?

What happens if an all male ambulance crew arrive at the scene of an accident and have to give care to a lady? Do we send them away or wait for a female chaperone?

We can't blame any man for the actions of other men, just as we can't blame women for what women do.

So women’s sexual trauma should be ignored if she needs intimate care? Her comfort, dignity, possibly even religion, none of that matters, because the man did the training, and he is priority?!

ChocolateDeficitDisorder as you DH has had years of experience and in a senior role he would I expect understand the dynamics between patient and HCP and how some are vulnerable and the vulnerability that many women feel around males

His patients are not privy to all of his experience or the acknowledgment he may have received throughout his career

I would absolutely expect him to understand this if he doesn’t then really why is he in his role

If we're talking about removal of catheters & showering we are talking about HCAs not nurses.

I have at times been the only female HCA on an elderly care ward (with three male HCAs). Of course you can request to only have female assistance, but it may take longer to happen.

I am a retired RGN/RMN, nursed for 40 years. I have always tried to be sensitive to patient’s needs.
When I had a hysterectomy 20 years ago, I had to be helped into the bath on day 2 post op by a female hca. I felt very wobbly and asked the hca to stay nearby. If that hca had been male, I would not have got in that bath. I felt very vulnerable.

And is it you that has a problem with some women preferring a female HCP over your DH or your DH

The vast majority of HCP’s I work with thankfully understand that there are times when this absolutely has to be taken into consideration

Yabu but I thought the protocol was to offer the choice. In some cases it may not be possible and she may not have felt able to ask. Can you contact PALS to ask what the policy is?

Anyone can request a same sex nurse. If your aunt is uncomfortable with having a male nurse providing intimate care then maybe you could mention it to the ward on her behalf. Lots of ladies aren’t comfortable with male nurses and they can request not to have one, or if there is no one else available they could have a female HCA chaperone.

That said in my experience male nurses are very good and generally very sensitive to the fact ladies may be uncomfortable and do their utmost to maintain their dignity.

@ChocolateDeficitDisorder

My DH is in the unusual position of being a Community Charge Nurse/Team Leader. He's also dark-skinned in a predominantly white community.

He's the qualified DN for a small practice along with his other role and is responsible for carrying out assessments and treatment of both men and women.

Who would do his job if the female patients didn't want him there? Thankfully, it happens very rarely, but how would it work if lots of ladies said that they didn't want a male nurse?

He's qualified as a nurse, completed a post-grad diploma and a masters as specialist nurse, has a clean PVG. What more does he have to do to be trusted around women, or any other patient for that matter?

What happens if an all male ambulance crew arrive at the scene of an accident and have to give care to a lady? Do we send them away or wait for a female chaperone?

We can't blame any man for the actions of other men, just as we can't blame women for what women do.

It's not about blaming men for the actions of other members of their sex, it's about respecting the rights and comfort of the patient. A large number of patients - the vast majority, most likely - will be fine with a male HCP but those who aren't should be able to request a female (and vice versa). It's not an insult to any specific man but an acknowledgment that patients are in a vulnerable position, often in distress, and wherever possible their distress should be minimised.

@Naunet

So women’s sexual trauma should be ignored if she needs intimate care? Her comfort, dignity, possibly even religion, none of that matters, because the man did the training, and he is priority?!

I was about to write exactly the same.

She wouldn't be unreasonable to request a female nurse, but it is unreasonable to expect only female nurses. I think it's unreasonable to assume that all women would have a strong preference for a female nurse as there are many who wouldn't mind either way but equally there are many who would prefer a nurse of the same sex.

A nurse is a nurse, male or female. A qualified professional doing their job.

Are we sure it was a gynae ward though? When I had a hysterectomy I was on a mixed surgical ward, though my bay was female. It certainly explains male nurses.

I've been in and out if hospital for years due to chronic illness/disability.
I've never once requested a female as nothing intimate/unclothed is required.

I'd except to be able to if I wanted though.