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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to expect female only nurses on a gynae ward?

590 replies

PanamaPattie · 29/06/2021 19:33

My vulnerable elderly aunt has recently had an hysterectomy for ovarian cancer. During a telephone call, she became very upset because she had her catheter taken out and was helped to shower by a male nurse. She didn't feel that she could complain as she was afraid of repercussions.

Am I being unreasonable to expect female only care on a gynae ward - considering the intimate and invasive nature of care?

OP posts:
WeatherSystems · 29/06/2021 22:15

^^ and I’m not talking out of a sense of defending men being able to do their job. I’m sure they are able to do that for themselves. I’m asking you to honestly question whether cutting out a proportion of the workforce is going to positively or negatively impact women’s healthcare.

birdglasspen · 29/06/2021 22:15

I had a male midwife during my monitored VBAC, he was amazing, I doubt it would be for everyone though. His wife was also a midwife. If I could choose I'd have him again this time round too! I guess she needs to speak up about it and see if another option is possible? Or accept that both sexes can do the job.

LangClegsInSpace · 29/06/2021 22:18

YABU to expect female only staff, that's discrimination against males wishing to work in that specialty

No it's not. The equality act would allow this in the same way it allows NHS breast screening services to be staffed by female only mammographers - which is standard and well advertised to patients.

The same part of the Act allows theatre companies to specify age, sex and race of actors when casting roles, community centres to specify that the black youth worker they are hiring must be black, or the catholic church to only hire catholics as priests.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/schedule/9/part/1

It wouldn't be reasonable to expect female only staff on a gynae ward today because we are where we are, but there's no good reason not to work towards that and there are very good reasons to do so.

Pumpkinbrew · 29/06/2021 22:22

I certainly wouldn't be comfortable at all being helped to wash by a male. Not at all.

I've had several male nurses on previous occasions who have taken bloods etc, stuck pads on me for the standard heart traces however for me personal care is too far for myself.

I've been on the gynae ward many a time and I definitely would not have felt okay with a male providing me personal care like that. I am in no way at all meaning it in a he's a male so therefore he's a predator way, just that I would in no circumstances be okay with it. I have no problem with describing conditions with male nurses/doctors as due to my health I've had to so many times but being put in a position to be washed by one is too much for me. Also so many people would feel too awkward to speak out in case they were thought of as being difficult and being labelled as being you know because he is a male. When the reality is down to individual boundaries and what the patient is comfortable with. As for other gynae related care I wouldn't feel comfortable with a male checking on blood loss, inserting anything or trying to clean up blood on me after very emotional incidents have happened such as miscarriage etc.

Obviously I've had numerous ops carried out by male doctors however I specifically requested a general for the ones that you could get away with a local for simply due to the extent of vulnerability that I feel. Same as when female doctors have performed similar on me. Other ones had to be sleeping for anyway. It is also different to them seeing me and assisting me in washing!

FindingMeno · 29/06/2021 22:23

I don't want intimate care ( as opposed to treatment) given to me by a man.
That's basically the top and bottom of it. If I had to have a man I'm not in a relationship shower me, I would rather stay unwashed.

Toddlerteaplease · 29/06/2021 22:23

@AnnaMagnani

Nurse is a nurse.

If she didn't want her catheter taken out by a male nurse she could have said so before he started.

Agreed
Comedycook · 29/06/2021 22:28

nurse is a nurse

Wow, what a thoughtful comment really examining all the subtle nuances and societal/cultural factors at play.

irresistibleoverwhelm · 29/06/2021 22:29

@ChocolateDeficitDisorder

ChocolateDeficitDisorder as you DH has had years of experience and in a senior role he would I expect understand the dynamics between patient and HCP and how some are vulnerable and the vulnerability that many women feel around males

Of course, I trained as a nurse along with him - we met at Uni.

This doesn't change my question. How does it work if he is the most appropriate nurse for the task in the area? What if we choose to move to a small Scottish island and he's the only nurse on call? (this actually can be the case).

We have to get past this, as do the general public. We would be outraged at racism and religious bias against care staff but we find this acceptable? There have been male doctors forever and male nurses are growing in number. They're professionals - treat them as such.

What about healthcare assistants, who are the ones likely to be performing intimate care? They can often have quite rudimentary training, are not on a professional register, may be very low-paid and low skilled (especially in settings like care homes where there may not be any professional oversight most of the time)?

Your DH might end up washing bottoms if he were the only healthcare provider on a Scottish island, but as Team Leader he presumably doesn’t provide intimate showering care in a hospital setting in his current role.

Plus, even in the case of “professionals” - I’ve personally known of three cases where a male GP or hospital doctor has been investigated over varying degrees of sexual misconduct/unprofessional behaviour, and in two of those cases the complaints upheld! In one the dr was struck off and in the other he apologised profusely and was sent for a lot of training and is still working.

So not all male hcps, but definitely some male hcps. How am I, or the OP’s elderly aunt, meant to tell the difference - by telepathy?

I’m in my forties and angry and articulate, and reasonably fit (still can give a good kick to the nuts even if I am a bit chubby Grin), so I might not feel as threatened as OP’s aunt might be. But if I was 80 and ill and in pain and no very mobile and naked? I can imagine I’d feel pretty potentially unsafe and uncomfortable in that situation tbh. And the fact that the male hcp is probably not going to do anything bad doesn’t mean that it’s guaranteed that he couldn’t.

Pumpkinbrew · 29/06/2021 22:29

She more than likely was too shocked to say that as when catheters are removed they don't give advance notice. The nurse suddenly appears and announces it is being removed. This is an elderly lady who has undergone treatment. I suspect it will have been sprung on her.

wisteriaandwhine · 29/06/2021 22:29

I have woken up on a ward to find male nurses already carrying out a procedure on me. They made zero attempt to obtain my consent and quite obviously did not have my consent.

Sleeping people cannot consent and it was not a medical emergency where the normal law on consent might be displaced.

In law, they assaulted me. It was a criminal assault. Those nurses are criminals.

But, hey, it saved time for them and they work in the NHS, so who cares because they must be 'heroes'.

I have no respect for people who enable, excuse or minimise such conduct in our hospitals. Some of the comments on this thread are disgusting.

wisteriaandwhine · 29/06/2021 22:31

@Pumpkinbrew

She more than likely was too shocked to say that as when catheters are removed they don't give advance notice. The nurse suddenly appears and announces it is being removed. This is an elderly lady who has undergone treatment. I suspect it will have been sprung on her.
Which is assault.
thebabessavedme · 29/06/2021 22:32

jeez!, why not some empathy with what the op has described as a 'vulnerable elderly' lady?, she has just had major intimate surgery and has a cancer diagnosis - blimey! surely she has every right to feel how she does and its understandable that a 'vulnerable elderly' lady would not feel comfortable asking for different nursing care? I dont think it is unreasonable for her to expect a woman to be helping her.

seven201 · 29/06/2021 22:33

Yabu to expect only female nurses on a gynae ward yes. I've have had three kidney surgeries and many fertility procedures and investigations - the vast majority of the doctors are men. Would you say the same about the male doctors? I can't say I love it, but I put up with it. That said, if your Aunt is uncomfortable then you should ring the ward on her behalf and say from now on she's really appreciate only have personal care by women. That's fair enough.

Pumpkinbrew · 29/06/2021 22:33

@wisteriaandwhine very much so. I forgot to tag the poster who had stated the lady should have just said so before it started. Some people really do not understand at all.

I am so very sorry for everything that you have been through. Absolutely horrific.

LangClegsInSpace · 29/06/2021 22:45

As a nurse I think it all boils down to the fact that people are judgmental and presumptive about male nurses.

As a patient I find it alarming that there are nurses with this kind of attitude.

RoomOfRequirement · 29/06/2021 22:48

OP is not being unreasonable to expect female carers to be available at all times. I was raped, and still struggle with male contact, especially anything intimate.

But some of the PPs are absolutely ridiculous and need to grow up! Assault? Perverted? Complaints?

There is absolutely NO indication the nurse did anything wrong!! And I have NO idea what they think the ward could have done differently in this situation?

OP you should call the ward on behalf of your aunt and request female only care. They should definitely ensure that is fulfilled and if not THEN complain. But so far they haven't been given even the option to respond or act upon it, so ignore those posters who are loving the idea of causing trouble.

LangClegsInSpace · 29/06/2021 23:08

@XingMing

I do not think it's all a mess of pursuing equality or predatory men. I firmly believe that nurses are nurses, and given the shortage of nurses, they should be deployed wherever they are needed. But, for elderly geriatric ladies, I think female carers would be more comforting.
Why just for 'elderly geriatric ladies'? (grim description)

Why not also for Muslim women, orthodox Jewish women and others with religious or cultural rules around interaction with the opposite sex?

Why not also for women who have been raped, sexually assaulted or abused?

Why not also for women who have no particular reason except that they would find the experience humiliating, intimidating, degrading or a violation of their dignity.

Why not also for women who just say 'no'.

given the shortage of nurses, they should be deployed wherever they are needed

So it would make sense to put male nurses on male wards, wouldn't it? That would prevent women being put in this position and it would give men more choice too.

ArabellaScott · 29/06/2021 23:18

Thank you, LangClegsinSpace.

LangClegsInSpace · 29/06/2021 23:19

@DamnUserName21

Why is the onus on the woman to object rather than for the male to ask permission?

Why is it assumed the nurse didn't ask permission?

When an HCP provides personal care, they will ask the patient if they want to receive it. Or the patient may, in turn, ask for personal care. Either way, the HCP will not just rip the bedcovers off! The patient consenting to care clearly knowing the HCP is male is consenting to being assisted by that person.
The patient (or relevant others) can state their preferences before the care goes ahead or specify this on the handover notes, however, it is always subject to availability.

If a patient feels unable to say no then they have not given valid consent. The onus is on the HCP to ensure they have valid consent.
C8H10N4O2 · 29/06/2021 23:21

As a nurse I think it all boils down to the fact that people are judgmental and presumptive about male nurses

As a patient I find it shocking that you don't know the law as it applies to your professional duties and even more that you don't understand why sex protected exemptions exist.

You may live in a shangri la where women have no reason physically, emotionally or culturally to have concerns about one on one intimate care from a man but I leave on planet earth where violence, sexual assault and predation are overwhelmingly male crimes and women are overwhelmingly the victims. Some women are fine with intimate care from a male HCA, others are not and are entitled to have their sex based rights respected.

VestaTilley · 29/06/2021 23:24

YANBU, I’d raise it if she has a preference for female only care. Lots of women wouldn’t have been comfortable.

EarlGreywithLemon · 29/06/2021 23:32

The kindest, loveliest midwife who looked after me after my daughter’s birth was male. I had a difficult birth and a PPH, so when I got out of bed with a gush of blood I thought it was another haemorrhage. In fact my pad had slipped off! He came when I rang the bell and found me totally shell shocked standing in a pool of blood. He was so kind and reassuring, did not make me feel like an idiot, steered me gently to the bathroom and helped me get cleaned up and have a shower. I was incredibly moved. Would I want men like him to be barred from working as midwives? Absolutely not. It would be a huge loss for the patients. On the other hand, absolutely fine for a patient to ask for a nurse of the same sex.
Incidentally, one of the doctors who delivered our daughter was also male and he was also brilliant. He was considerate, very respectful of my wishes, and may also have saved both our lives.

EKGEMS · 30/06/2021 00:03

A patient is always able to request a female nurse here in the US I don't think male nurses should be banned-nursing shortages would make some Edwards understaffed if we restricted staff

Rachie1973 · 30/06/2021 00:03

I have had male physicians deal with gynae stuff but I hate it. I just deal with it for speed and convenience.

I feel uncomfortable, exposed, generally vulnerable. There is no logic behind this. It’s just how I feel.

I have absolute empathy for the OPs aunt. It’s hard to speak out sometimes. Your brain knows that the male caring for you is a professional person, however it still doesn’t make you any less self conscious.

I work as a HCP but in our building when we get new residents they give permission (or not) for gender specific care. We are lucky that there are enough of us to respect their wishes.

Spidey66 · 30/06/2021 00:22

As I've already said, I don't think the OPs aunt was on a gynae ward. Those having hysterectomy are often cared for on surgical wards.

The aunt may not realise she is on a mixed sex surgical ward, if she is being cared for in a female bay, but I bet she is. As it's likely a mixed ward, it's not surprising it has mixed staff.

I'm not saying the aunt shouldn't request she get personal care from female nurses, but I don't think the scenario is quite as the OP describes.

I had a hysterectomy a few years ago and was cared for in a surgical ward. As I was cared for in a female bay, I didn't cotton on till discharge it was a mixed ward (though I was aware it was surgical, and I wasn't shocked or surprised, I just didnt realise.)

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