To feel like looking 'average' these days is bloody hard work?

[JustGiveMeGin]

Disclaimer: I had a similar thread in style and beauty when I wasn't feeling my best. I have definitely made peace with how I look and this is NOT a woe is me thread 🤣
To even look average I have to dye the greys out of my hair, have my eyelashes and eyebrows tinted (did I mention greys?) Remove hair from underarms, legs, bikini area. Spray tan couple of times a week, moisturise after every shower (daily). Wash, conditon and blow dry hair daily. Anti wrinkle face cream twice daily after cleansing. That's just the basics....I can and do go out without makeup bit I feel better with: cc cream, face powder, bronzer, blusher, eyebrow pencil, mascara and lipstick.
To me I feel like I should look like a fucking goddess after all that effort but sadly I still sit in the firmly average camp!
Does anyone get what I mean or have I finally gone off my rocker for good?

I think I look ok (43) and I do very little.

I had balayage on my hair last August and it still looks fine.

I wash my hair every two days. I braid it wet and then leave it. I let it out in the evening by which time it has dried, and developed wave and bounce from the braid.

I don't wear makeup except for going out in the evening and I only shave bits that will be on show. (DH doesn't care).

I apply anti aging serum and moisturizer to my face once a day. I occasionally use night moisturizer and/ or my foreo bear when I feel like I'm looking haggard.

Think that's it really...

*A woman who doesn't wear make up is judged with either

'she can't be bothered, lazy cow'*

Lol yep can't be bothered and proud of it.

I tend to find people with obvious makeup a little off putting actually so I probably naturally gravitate towards others who feel the same.

Rude, patronising, presumptuous.
Proves my point from my previous comments.
You can do all these things as well as maintaining your looks the way you like!
I don't have time to volunteer at present but certainly not because I'm too busy powdering my face but I have done plenty of it in my time.
Who are you to talk down to those who enjoy beauty products with the tone that they must therefore be shallow and thick?

It perpetuates the whole 'beauty' trope that keeps you in this pointless cycle. It is totally irrelevant and causes so many problems. I didn't say you were shallow or thick, did I? I suppose it keeps some people in work though and women's magazines being sold. Gossip columns being written (where it mentions which bits of cloth people are wearing or what 'work' they've had done). It also fosters unhealthy obsessions with appearance. Still, if it makes you happy then not sure why you're bemoaning your lot.

It perpetuates the whole 'beauty' trope that keeps you in this pointless cycle. It is totally irrelevant and causes so many problems. I didn't say you were shallow or thick, did I? I suppose it keeps some people in work though and women's magazines being sold. Gossip columns being written (where it mentions which bits of cloth people are wearing or what 'work' they've had done). It also fosters unhealthy obsessions with appearance. Still, if it makes you happy then not sure why you're bemoaning your lot.

Whilst I believe no woman should be made to lesser because of some aspect of appearance or type of grooming or lack of it, I do sometimes think is it really better to value other aspects of life over this, such as making money? Appearance can be as much artistic expression as other art forms. And yes there are cultural influences and as such woman can be influenced by market forces but no art is separate from cultural influences and all art is derivative. And what is wrong with wanting to feel beautiful? Unfortunately, I feel we are currently made to feel guilty for wanting to feel beautiful and essentially loved. We've come to value self made monetary success so much more. And ironically beauty has become commercialised, something to be bought through the use of services and products. Appreciation of beauty is one thing I genuinely miss from the bad old times when feminism was only just in its infancy. I sometimes look at retro perfume ads just to remember the thrill!

I feel we are currently made to feel guilty for wanting to feel beautiful and essentially loved.

There's nothing wrong with either. The belief that you have to make yourself as beautiful as you can in order to be loved is insiduous and unhealthy.

The belief that you have to make yourself as beautiful as you can in order to be loved is insiduous and unhealthy.

My view is no way as polarised as that. What is it about social media where everything is taken as meaning the most extreme version as what is said?

My appearance is one aspect of myself that someone could love about me. It is one way in which I can express my character. However, it should go without saying, I have many other attributes too!

I still often feel awkward and not beautiful without makeup on/not groomed, tanned, eyebrows etc - yet I show up in my life, connect with people, try and be confident, think of myself as beautiful. It's sometimes hard but I genuinely think of it as something I'm doing not only for myself but for other women.

All that stuff about 'society says...'- someone said upthread that we are society. If those of us who can see our way clear to limiting the environmentally wasteful, self-esteem-eroding products and try to normalise a more natural look, it might help others get there too.

It doesn't mean you're shallow if you rely on beauty products to feel OK about yourself (NB not talking about doing it for fun etc as others have said- am talking about the 'just to feel average' idea). But wouldn't it be better to have a normal daily look for us all that was nothing/minimal grooming - so it could always be a genuine choice?

I Concentrate on what I need to do to feel good without comparing to others.
I am no oil painting but feel good ish about myself without half the work you put in. Makeup most days because I like it.
I am fortunate I guess I am mid 40 and blonde so no need to dye. Eye brows never needed working.
Some people are lucky in different areas. I am not naturally slim and this would take work because I get cravings quite badly. I’m not fortunate there. Swings and roundabouts as they say.

@grasstreeleaf

In person you have body language and nuance of speech. Here we just have the words to interpret as we can.

@SixesAndEights indeed, that is so true.

All that stuff about 'society says...'- someone said upthread that we are society. If those of us who can see our way clear to limiting the environmentally wasteful, self-esteem-eroding products and try to normalise a more natural look, it might help others get there too.

The problem with this is that it is still very judgemental of a massive group of women who use beauty products . Why should it be the products that mainly women use be the ones that are targeted for being environmentally wasteful and somehow detrimental to character? When I was going through chemotherapy drawing the eyebrows on and applying some makeup to my complexion made me feel I still looked recognisable as me. A lot of women feel they have to make an adjustment to their ageing face and body in a similar way. Thinning hair, greying hair, dry skin can all come with age and can be hard to get accustomed to.

@WeDontLikeCricket

I genuinely don't think I have ever seen anyone who looks better without make up than with, but then that is just personal opinion isn't it. I wouldn't go so far as to say that you must think a lot of yourself to not wear make up, I just think that they are happy with themselves and that's that. It could be said that people who really go all out think a lot of themselves to bother with all the extra faff.

Define "better".

I have patches of red skin on my face (eczema). Would hiding them with makeup make me look "better"? Only, if you buy into the marketing that women must have flawless skins.

I think I look better as I am. Same way as I think I look fine with greying hair. If you prefer to wear makeup and dye your hair then go for it. But don't tell other people that this is "better".

Very well said UserAtLarge.
All this women look better with make up only works if your fundamental belief is that 50% of the population are somehow lacking in their natural form.

People can have whatever beauty regimes they want if it makes them feel better in a society that pushes a particular expectation on women. They can have whatever regimes they like if they enjoy the creativity of makeup and beauty.

But we seriously need to be challenging women who sell other women out with crap that reinforces the idea that women need to change who they are to be considered acceptable. Is it any wonder girls grow up to be self-conscious when the women in their lives are perpetuating the idea that to be acceptable or beautiful or even 'average', the female half of the species need to do endless treatments to improve their skin, then cover their skin on a daily basis, then coat their body in fake tan solution, then remove any sign of body hair, then get their teeth fixed, then hide their freckles, then make sure they look the same at 40 as they did at 20, then ensure there's no sign of grey hair, and so on.

It is so weird that women are so uncomfortable with their natural body colours, and need to repaint them or touch them up just to be 'average'. Meanwhile men basically leave theirs as they are and that is perfectly acceptable.

But we seriously need to be challenging women who sell other women out with crap that reinforces the idea that women need to change who they are to be considered acceptable.

Do we, really? Why challenge the women? Why are women being accused (again)?

These ideas are being perpetuated by the beauty industry so why not target that? The women that feel overwhelmed by modern grooming routines but unacceptable without them are the victims not the perpetrators. And just because someone doesn't wear makeup or dye their hair it doesn't mean they don't fall victim to any of the other societal standards disproportionately expected from women. They're not necessarily somehow more feminist or superior because they don't wear makeup, for example.

Not everyone is ready to reveal their own struggles and/or afflictions regarding their appearance to the world. Beauty routines and products can help many people feel more like themselves.

This should be something that is a personal choice. Being judgmental over the amount of grooming someone else does or doesn't do is what is wrong not the grooming routines in themselves (unless they are actually ones which are detrimental to health).

I agree @grasstreeleaf, women are the victims not the perpetrators. So how do we say "the choice you are making is a result of you being subject to bad shit that has played on your vulnerabilities"? Because I think I just tried to say that, and you are saying I'm being judgemental of other women. How do we acknowledge that it would be better fpr everyone not to feel compelled to make those choices?

I completely agree on the other societal standards part. For example I might find it hard to speak up at work or get a good balance of domestic chores with my husband, or have a doctor dismissing my illness and pain. If other feminists and male allies help to normalise fairer systems in all these other areas, in the world around me, it may help me, right? Doesn't make them better feminists because that's the battle they are best at fighting. And it doesn't make me a better feminist than you because I happen to find the appearance battle easier to fight. I am very sorry to hear you have had to undergo chemo and that sounds like a whole different awful ballgame when it comes to trying to grab back your sense of yourself.

So how do we say "the choice you are making is a result of you being subject to bad shit that has played on your vulnerabilities"?

I think it can be extremely difficult to communicate without imparting some degree of judgment. In essence it means telling someone they are being deceived/ manipulated which means there is an implicit judgment upon their decision making processes. I don't think we need to be personalising the argument. Maybe to be very careful in talking generally, not personally, about the beauty industry, diet industry etc

And to not jump to conclusions. Let's not forget many women are pretty savvy and know about the way market forces work and do feel very strongly that is their right to choose whether to buy into particular grooming routines etc. They don't want their choices in the way they change their appearance to be impeded by an idealogical guilt trip.

And it doesn't make me a better feminist than you because I happen to find the appearance battle easier to fight. I am very sorry to hear you have had to undergo chemo and that sounds like a whole different awful ballgame when it comes to trying to grab back your sense of yourself.

I wouldn't say I find it difficult. I'm pretty happy with the way I look now. However, I do empathise with women that do because I have had experience of my appearance being changed quite dramatically in the past through cancer treatments.

I am nearly 50 now and my treatment pushed me into menopause so I know something about how ageing skin can feel too. I went from hardly needing a moisturiser to using stuff pretty much all over my body. I haven't really found it all terribly difficult but makeup and other beauty products did help so I don't like judgments being heaped onto women for wearing makeup, for example. My hair had changed when it grew back too, I suddenly had frizzy wiry grey hair that grew sticking straight outwards! But again I coped and the frizz has mainly grown out and I manage to stain my hair with tea and other kitchen ingredients so it is a very natural looking dark blonde colour. I've got on top of my fitness too and look and feel pretty slim toned and healthy. I am pretty confident now with or without makeup, I exercise outside without it but wear it when I'm not exercising.

We can say that the choices we make are shaped by our society without including judgement regarding either the pressures (bad shit) or why we do it (insecurities).

We wouldn't be making the choices we make now (whatever they are) in a different society. And we do make them to both please ourselves and others.
Anyone who thinks their choices are not shaped in anyway by society is deluded, sorry.

But societal pressure doesn't have to be bad, or good.
And it's not necessarily all patriarchy. Quite a lot is driven by matriarchy too. In that sense, we can be our worst enemies - sometimes in reinforcing the patriarchy, but others in demanding very high standards from each other.
We all tend to frown a little (or a lot) on those who make different choices from us, as seen on this thread.

@Lweji

We can say that the choices we make are shaped by our society without including judgement regarding either the pressures (bad shit) or why we do it (insecurities).

We wouldn't be making the choices we make now (whatever they are) in a different society. And we do make them to both please ourselves and others.
Anyone who thinks their choices are not shaped in anyway by society is deluded, sorry.

But societal pressure doesn't have to be bad, or good.
And it's not necessarily all patriarchy. Quite a lot is driven by matriarchy too. In that sense, we can be our worst enemies - sometimes in reinforcing the patriarchy, but others in demanding very high standards from each other.
We all tend to frown a little (or a lot) on those who make different choices from us, as seen on this thread.

I agree our choices are not made in a vacuum. There are very definitely societal pressures. However, they are still choices and people will defend their right to choose. Added to this people don't tend to like an inference they are making the wrong choices or are overly naive and that they are being manipulated into making the choices they do.

My school of thought is, and always has been:

Look like shite 75% of the time so that when you do actually make an effort you look really great!

@grasstreeleaf and @Lweji two very wise and thoughtful posts, I agree with both of you.

Thanks, @Octopuscake, kind of you to say that.

Do we, really? Why challenge the women? Why are women being accused (again)?
Because when individuals insist that women look better with makeup they're making a choice to say that 50% of the population isn't good enough as they are. It's a shitty thing to say.
Because when individuals decide to argue that not doing their approved beauty things means other women look scruffy and like they've rolled out of bed, it's a shitty thing to say.

I have challenged the beauty industry several times on this thread, but will also call out women who bash half the population.

One thing I do find is that I actually enjoy spending mental time mulling over style and beauty issues simply because they are not that important. There are also loads of ready made solutions to explore. If my brain is occupied with this it means there is less time to stress over the more important things that I can't really control. So in that way having a little worry over beauty issues or something is quite relaxing,

One thing I do find is that I actually enjoy spending mental time mulling over style and beauty issues simply because they are not that important. There are also loads of ready made solutions to explore. If my brain is occupied with this it means there is less time to stress over the more important things that I can't really control. So in that way having a little worry over beauty issues or something is quite relaxing,