To move away and leave elderly in-laws behind?

[Summerplans7]

DH’s company has been talking to him about the chance of a transfer abroad. His job is perfectly safe here in the U.K., but the opportunity abroad is a country we have both always wanted to live in (although with Covid restrictions almost impossible to get to at the moment), but it would take us far from his elderly parents.

His mother would be devastated as she is close to our children and has been lonely over the last few years due to Covid, and the health of his his father has declined severely (he has dementia and isn’t really “there” anymore). I feel guilty even considering it. So does DH.

Do you think it would be selfish to go? It would be selfish of course, I know, but these chances only come around once in a lifetime (for us anyway).

All the restrictions have made us crave an adventure more than ever. The country we are considering is also frequently on the top of the list for qualify of life, and places to raise children, making it more tempting. And I have a good friend who lives there, so it wouldn’t be totally alien.

MIL wouldn’t want to come, even if FIL wasn’t unwell, so that’s not an option. She has a lot of friends and a community here and doesn’t intend to ever leave her area. She is actually pushing us to move nearer (we’re not far at the moment), has even suggested we all move in together (not an option for me).

'lived in a lot of places as a child and had some privileged opportunities but the thing I remember and cherish most is my relationship with my grandparents. People matter more. Belonging and being loved and feeling adored matters more.'

Totally agree. I've lived and worked overseas in my younger years but having extended family relatively close by gives me far more enjoyment than any expat community I've experienced. Yes I had fun, but seeing the relationship our dc have with grandparents is priceless. Facetime is a very very poor substitute, we all know that.

@Blossomtoes

Before my mother died, I wouldn’t have been able to leave her

There you go, OP. You said it.

No. The OP relationship with her mother & her choices are entirely different to her dj and his choices. It's about the individual relationship. I have an awful relationship with my dm and wouldn't think twice but I would struggle at leaving my sister who I love dearly. I think some posters are being clearly myopic & only thinking of their familial relationships. Which may be fabulous. That isn't so for everyone. Secondly, the UK is one of the most expensive places to live in the world & adult children struggle to get on the property ladder, and with an increasingly corrupt Tory gvmt & the nhs at risk. Op your first allegiances are to yourself and your children & dj. No one else. Your mil has made her life choices & will continue to do so. You MUST make yours with your own immediate family in mind. How wonderful your df sounds that he will move with you. He sounds lovely. 😍 If your dh wants to go then dont look back.

My wonderful dad died nine years ago, and I was lucky enough to have switched to being self-employed so I was able to care for him through a terminal illness, and be there at the end. I still miss him very much, but I have the comfort of knowing I was there for him when he needed me.

We are all different, but I know for certain that when my time is up on this mortal world I won't regret places I haven't travelled to, but I will regret time lost with people I love. For me, life is all about being around my family and loved ones - sure, there may be exciting experiences elsewhere but a life without my family would feel empty to me. And growing up I was very close to my grandparents too; they lived in the same road as us. As long as I have people I love around me, life can be fun, enjoyable etc.

It is a sore subject for me because in my teens, my dad went to live in an Israeli kibbutz for a few years (he didn't have much choice - very long story!) and the absence was hard for us both. More recently, my DP's entire family moved overseas - and once again, it left an enormous hole. No matter how hard we all try, we've lost the relationship we had.

I guess if you live at the other end of the country to your family and only see them once or twice a year, moving overseas makes very little difference. But if you're part of a close and loving family group with regular contact, I think moving overseas represents a big loss that no amount of pretty landscapes and fun times will ever compensate for.

And all of that is even without considering the fact that I would always want to be around to look after my parents when they got old/infirm. Not out of guilt, but because I want to.

Your parents are a long time dead, I would want to enjoy seeing them while I still can. I do totally accept that other people prioritise fun and adventure, and that's entirely their prerogative.

@ExhaustedFlamingo

My wonderful dad died nine years ago, and I was lucky enough to have switched to being self-employed so I was able to care for him through a terminal illness, and be there at the end. I still miss him very much, but I have the comfort of knowing I was there for him when he needed me.

We are all different, but I know for certain that when my time is up on this mortal world I won't regret places I haven't travelled to, but I will regret time lost with people I love. For me, life is all about being around my family and loved ones - sure, there may be exciting experiences elsewhere but a life without my family would feel empty to me. And growing up I was very close to my grandparents too; they lived in the same road as us. As long as I have people I love around me, life can be fun, enjoyable etc.

It is a sore subject for me because in my teens, my dad went to live in an Israeli kibbutz for a few years (he didn't have much choice - very long story!) and the absence was hard for us both. More recently, my DP's entire family moved overseas - and once again, it left an enormous hole. No matter how hard we all try, we've lost the relationship we had.

I guess if you live at the other end of the country to your family and only see them once or twice a year, moving overseas makes very little difference. But if you're part of a close and loving family group with regular contact, I think moving overseas represents a big loss that no amount of pretty landscapes and fun times will ever compensate for.

And all of that is even without considering the fact that I would always want to be around to look after my parents when they got old/infirm. Not out of guilt, but because I want to.

Your parents are a long time dead, I would want to enjoy seeing them while I still can. I do totally accept that other people prioritise fun and adventure, and that's entirely their prerogative.

"Fun" & "adventure" some of us don't have wonderful parents we want to look after in their dying days, but DO have wonderful partners & DC that we want to do the best by.

How patronising to put it down to "fun & adventure"

@CrappyBirthday2Me

And on the kids vs Canada thing - I lived in a lot of places as a child and had some privileged opportunities but the thing I remember and cherish most is my relationship with my grandparents. People matter more. Belonging and being loved and feeling adored matters more.

Beautifully put @CrappyBirthday2Me. I see with my own children how their relationship with their extended family has been weakened from this last bloody 16 months of much diminished real life contact. And that this has been a loss for them. I'm not saying that the children's relationship with their granny should be a deciding factor but it is certainly something for those seeing this in such black and white terms to bring into the frame.

'Do those of you who think it is selfish to go really want your children to not take opportunities so they can care for you? Do you not want them to seize opportunities to improve their lives'

It isn't about 'caring', it is about family and the ops dh's parents count. They are important people and the relationship kids have with loving grandparents actually enriches their life I would suggest more than any opportunities and oversees job offers.

Have any of you telling her to go actually worked abroad? It isn't this fabled land of honey you know. There are usually plenty of dysfunctional expats huddled together in some 'Irish bar' showing off about their maids or their new car. Family relationships are far more important.

My DB has recently announced his decision to swan off to Australia with his wife, without any discussion of the fact this will leave me caring for our elderly DP on my own. I love them dearly and do not begrudge helping them but it does boil my piss that he didn't even give that a second thought let alone have a conversation with me about it.

At the risk of restating what you already know, moving abroad does not just affect the people doing the move, it has a significant and lasting impact on those left behind. Personally I couldn't live with the guilt and it would ruin my experience of living there.

Have any of you telling her to go actually worked abroad? It isn't this fabled land of honey you know.

Yup! Once before kids, for three years, and currently without a time frame (other than having got the kids through school), three years and ticking. We do have regrets, of course, particularly in the current shit show that is the UK in the pandemic and brexit. But we acted in the best interests of our family, as we saw it, with the information we had to hand, and that I do not regret, and never will, for one damned second.

@WinterIsGone

But pitching it this way as kids vs granny/grandad as many have done here means many will naturally come down on the kids side and legitimise what many will see as a selfish and pretty cold decision.

I think you are right about it being a false dichotomy. Surely the kids will have a great life (or not) wherever you are. It's like using the kids to reach a decision you (in general, not the OP specifically) want. Teaching kids how to care for older sick people is a great thing, I feel. And there's plenty of opportunity to take holidays abroad. You can have an outdoor lifestyle here, if you want.

I always smile at the outdoors lifestyle one, as if that is something which can only be achieved by moving to another continent. I live in the west of Ireland, far wetter than most places in Britain and manage to have just that when I feel like it. In the last few days alone my children and I have swam in the sea, gone pier jumping and had 2 beautiful woodland walks/hikes. Those opportnities are there if you want them. The outdoors is everywhere!

But what's not everywhere is the people who made us who we are, our families, our friends, our communities, our place. None of which is to say that people shouldn't move abroad and elsewhere and it's often the right thing and a wonderful experience, of course it is. But like everything on life, there are costs and sacrifices which have to be weighed

To the posters saying NO: given that most parents will get old and presumably need/want/appreciate some help/support etc in those years, does that mean we should never move away or go anywhere?

I speak as the child of parents who moved away from their family, and I then did the same too.
Yes, that can cause difficulties and feelings of guilt, but oddly enough I've seen that even with friends who still live round the corner from their parents - there is no right or wrong, you just do what you think is right for your family and then cope with situations as best you can as and when they arise imo.

@Alonelonelylonersbadidea

Just go. As a parent of adult children I'd be horrified if their choices were made with seeing me in mind. Seriously.

Also it is usually very hard for seniors to contemplate moving and very unusual when they do so. The ones who do are born adventurers, not MIL in this case I'm sure. And this is fine, but they can't also expect their offspring to plan their lives around them.

One life OP! It's not a dress rehearsal.

And I'd be horrified if I raised children who didn't at least carefully consider the wider web of connections and obligations that being a member of a family and society entail before making life altering decisions. For instance if one of my two children blithely decided to move to the other side of the world leaving their sibling with the emotional, practical burden of dealing with me or their father at the kind of stage OP's IL's are at. The final decision would still be theirs and I wouldn't lay any guilt trips on them but some posters here (not OP) seem to be almost incredulous that people would consider others outside their 'own little family'. To me that's just the sign of a decent and well reared person.

My own parents moved us lock stock and barrel when we were kids. I thank god we came to the U.K. pretty much every day of my life. (Part of me wishes a planned move to italy scuppered by international politics/unrest had gone ahead). Lived far from every single relative and pre internet let alone face time days. It was just how it was as kids. We didn’t know different. But they left when grandparents were hale and hearty 60 somethings.
Have lived with me now dead remote parent. Very difficult and when saying goodbye every time gel N I ay not see them again is indescribable (somehow worse than the exact same week leave takings with parent in London but so different to be able to nip over of something happens etc.
As it is I was with my remote parent when he died and not when my London parent died !
Op - your husband (ad you) have a big decision given it’s a really difficult time jto go. I dont think you would be selfish but I strongly feel I I went I personally Ed be being selfish I- and for what? You and your kids can always be travellers and have adventures and emigrate etc but right now seems an odd time ??
Whatever you decide good luck. If you decide to stay in the U.K. really important it’s a clear adult decision and no one allows anyone to feel bitter or beholden.

Vancouver is quite pricey but wages tend to be higher there as well. You definitely need to check the package thoroughly and see it gives you the standard of living you require - this could be a good starting point to see if this move is viable in the first place

My family have a history of living in different countries from parents. I have never really thought about this until recently. I live near to my elderly widowed mother and want to move away. I feel very guilty but we have a poor relationship and quite honestly she has never helped me in her life.

My daughter is planning to move abroad in the next few years. I am really upset about it, but it’s her life and I want her to make the most of it.

Well, for us, the ones who are shouldering the burden of older parents, are the ones with whom they have always been enmeshed, and their relationships have been close and mutually beneficial. Which seems fair to me.

That is not the sort of relationship we had with our parents, and not for want of trying on our part. We were expected to do whatever was wanted or needed, with no consideration for what that cost us in any way, shape or form, no matter how much to our detriment or our kids. Which is how we came to realise that we really did have to look out for our interests, our kids interest, because sure as hell, nobody else was!

Which is not to say that we don't love our mothers, and DH has a very good relationship with his brother.

I'm Canadian and grew up in Vancouver, now live in Toronto.
Vancouver is insanely expensive. Be prepared to spend a lot on housing. There's a famous website called "Crack house or Million dollar house" all about Van. I sold my one-bedroom 20 year old condo 5 years ago for half a million. And rent is even worse. It is also not a very friendly city. The weather can also be an adjustment. Van has the highest suicide rate in Canada which has been attributed to SAD. And I don't know why people think half of Canada speaks french? lol People in Quebec speak french, and Ontario it's more common. Not out in BC. That said it IS gorgeous. If you don't mind the rain 10 months of the year you are good. I actually love the rain. Finding a family doctor is an impossible task so I would get on a waitlist now just to be on the ball.

Having lost my Dad I am so thankful we and the kids saw him as much as we did before he died. So I couldn't. But I am not you.

I do think it impacts massively on your DH's sister. I am the sibling everyone assumes will look after DM while they do what they like, and it's annoying.

I'd be horrified if I raised children who didn't at least carefully consider the wider web of connections and obligations that being a member of a family and society entail before making life altering decisions

Oh the typical martyr syndrome. You have to put everyone else before yourself, otherwise you were badly brought up and don't have any community spirit. What about putting your kids first ahead of grandparents?

I didn't have a close relationship with my grandparents as my grandfathers died before I was born and my grandmothers were both quite elderly and lived a long way away so I saw them once a year max. But I suppose if you see them regularly you will be almost as close to them as you are to your parents. In which case, what about asking the kids what they would like to do? Stay at home and help look after grandad, or live overseas for a bit?

I’ve read your recent updates and I think now is the best time to emigrate! You and DH are in your 40s with young children. Before you know it, you’ll be “too old” to easily get a visa and your DC will find school transitions tricky. You’re only moving to Canada. That’s a relatively short flight in comparison to Asia, Aus or NZ!

@looptheloopinahulahoop

I'd be horrified if I raised children who didn't at least carefully consider the wider web of connections and obligations that being a member of a family and society entail before making life altering decisions

Oh the typical martyr syndrome. You have to put everyone else before yourself, otherwise you were badly brought up and don't have any community spirit. What about putting your kids first ahead of grandparents?

I didn't have a close relationship with my grandparents as my grandfathers died before I was born and my grandmothers were both quite elderly and lived a long way away so I saw them once a year max. But I suppose if you see them regularly you will be almost as close to them as you are to your parents. In which case, what about asking the kids what they would like to do? Stay at home and help look after grandad, or live overseas for a bit?

Nothing martyred about @theleafandnotthetree’s post. It’s about how you’re brought up. It’s only martyrdom if you do it unwillingly.

Yes, case life changing decisions on the views of primary age kids, that’s going to go well, isn’t it?

Base, dammit, not case!

Putting yourself first isn't the same thing as being selfish. Selfish is inconsiderate and unfair and needlessly cruel or nasty. Putting yourself first is good for your health.

Did you have DC so they could look after you in old age? Or because you wanted to bring up a family and see them go off into the world to live their own lives? Even if your in laws did the former, their son doesn't have to stick with the plan they made for him. You can still be in touch with them regularly wherever you live. Your DC don't deserve to have their own better childhood sacrificed so the in laws can have a better old age. You're responsible for your DC but not for your in laws.

@Josette77

About 1/4 of Canadians speak French as their first language & half as a second language.

This was wrt it being called an anglophone country - a significant % are not anglophones - it's not like the US or Aus.

Nobody said Quebec was near Vancouver.

I have to say I would choose Toronto over Vancouver - it's slightly nearer for a start.

Is there not a middle ground between being a martyr and 'fuck y'all, I'm off.'? That's all I'm saying. And yes, part of most people's sense of wellbeing IS derived from the quality of their relationships with other people, including but not limited to their children. In a burning building kind of scenario, they would come first but otherwise, their needs and wants are juggled along with everybody elses. And as I've said before, this proposed move is not about delivering the OP's children from some kind of hell to heaven so that's a false argument about putting them first. I don't think the OP would do this but I'd be wary, as I always am, about presenting this move to the children as being even primarily for or about them. What if they are miserable or miss granny or blame themselves for having left her behind? It's like parents who work all the hours God sends and presents it to their children as 'all for you' when a) that's rarely true and b) the child never asked for it and would likely prefer more time and attention. Own your decisions as adults and parents, most people do what suits them and then only when challenged or facing upset will fall back on the 'I did it for the kids'

OP's children from some kind of hell to heaven so that's a false argument about putting them first

You claim it's a false argument on the basis of a false dichotomy.