Father in law won’t get vaccinated but wants to visit

[SquarePeggyLeggy]

We are in Australia. The vaccination program is ludicrously slow and behind other nations, and totally voluntary. We have our first appointment booked for a few weeks from now (first available!). We are also currently in lockdown.
My daughter is a medically vulnerable person.
Father in law is clearly hesitant about the vax. Not clear how anti it is, but changes the subject when we talk about it and makes statements such as: “I live in the country and don’t have kids at school, so no risk to me”. He hasn’t outright said no, but it’s clear, and he swings towards alternative treatments etc.
He wants to visit us “as soon as lockdown ends”, which is likely to be after our first jab, but not the second. We haven’t seen him since January 2019. It would be good to see him.
I don’t want an unvaccinated visitor. I want to say: “we need you to be vaccinated before you visit”. Being older, he can get an immediate appointment. He is 70, he should absolutely get one.
AIBU? I don’t want him here or travelling unvaccinated. I’m aware we will have no way of knowing who is and who isn’t and my daughter will be mixing with people all the time.
So what are people doing with hesitant visitors when you are adamantly pro vax? How do you discuss it?

I won’t be visiting my family in America because none of them are being vaccinated and one of them is quite vulnerable.

@bakebeans

We need to be careful not to attribute cause using anecdotal data. We don’t know a lot about the new variants yet, we don’t know much about what happens when someone catches covid more than once. There was some early reporting that it is more mild second time, some later reporting saying that your body can be weakened by covid and unable to fight it off as well second time. In summary, there’s not enough data.

What we do know is that we have plenty of data on the safety of the vaccine.

It is likely that we will need a booster at some point, like most vaccinations out there. What are your concerns about a booster?

@ user1471539324 given that the current data is based on the trials of the vaccines and the Uk government haven’t administered the vaccines in accordance to how it was given in the trials which incidently is how the original data was sought I do have concerns yes so I won’t be having a booster until they can evidence it!

@bakebeans

But we have plentiful data post-trial now. What exactly are you concerned about? You’ve not articulated it. You’ve said about the vaccine rollout but what effect are you concerned about?

@IamnotSethRogan

I'm pretty sure that him being vaccinated doesn't pose any less risk to you. You can still contract and transmit covid with the vaccination, it just means you are less likely to get seriously ill

1. This is completely untrue.2. Doesn’t even make sense. Getting a more mild case IS lower risk. Do you do know it lowers the risk, jsut can’t bring yourself to say it out loud.

Vaccination lowers the risk of catching it, if you catch it Lowers the risk of you getting it badly and both of those lower the risk of you spreading it to others. Risk lowered on all fronts.

@bakebeans

@ user1471539324 given that the current data is based on the trials of the vaccines and the Uk government haven’t administered the vaccines in accordance to how it was given in the trials which incidently is how the original data was sought I do have concerns yes so I won’t be having a booster until they can evidence it!

Baked beans you realise all over the world millions of people are vaccinated? We’ve never had vaccine data like we do for this one as we’ve never ever had such a concerted global vaccination effort. They have collected the data from the millions and millions of real non trial people who have been getting vaccinated since last year.

You're insane

but this virus doesn't harm the vast majority of people badly, especially the young. My children caught it and threw it off with ease. Barely a temperature

The OP's dd is not 'the vast majority of people ...especially the young'. She is unusually vulnerable,

I'd never let someone who deliberately chose not to be vaccinated near my medically vulnerable child. Of course, it's his decision not to do it, but he shouldn't expect other people not to react to that. You must take steps to reduce the risk for your child. He can choose not to take the vaccine, and you can choose to prevent your child from not mixing with people in the house who are unvaccinated. You both have that right.

@shas19

You're insane

And you’re rude which is far worse!

You cannot force people to get vaccinated. It’s their choice. And refusing to see them if they don’t get vaccinated is tantamount to blackmail

Not when the op has a medically vulnerable DD it's not. If anything it's blackmail from the Dad for them to expect the OP to have him visit just because he's Dad and they haven't seen him in so long.

The elderly and vulnerable that want it are already vaccinated in the uk.

Thousands of vulnerable kids are mixing with 150 households unvaxed a day. Then going home to mix with hundreds of other family members. One of my parents has TC and only very recently had their second jab. Some of the people they've met at the chemo sessions are still waiting for their second dose. I was on the shielding list and still haven't been able to book a slot for my vax. So no It's not true to say all the vulnerable have been protected.

I know a few people who have had both jabs and caught Covid.

It has never been claimed it stops you from catching covid. At all. It stops you getting seriously ill from it by priming your immune system how to respond to a new virus. Much more preferable to the cytakine storm of your immune system isn't primed for a massive viral load.

His body, his choice. But he has to live by those choices also.

If he wants to visit, and you want to see him, and you're concerned, then all you can do is take precautions. Such as he stays elsewhere and you only see him/meet him outside. No hugs or close contact.

I know a few people who have had both jabs and caught Covid.

I know people who were safe drivers, and got into road accidents.

Doing something that is risky doesn't automatically mean you'll suffer bad consequences. Doing something that is a protective factor doesn't automatically mean that the bad things won't happen to you. It just affects the likelihood.

And if you get Covid despite having the jabs, you will probably have it less severely and have a lower chance of transmitting it than someone who didn't have the jabs.

I know people who were safe drivers, and got into road accidents.

How on earth can you compare “safe drivers” to vaccinated people still catching covid? How do you quantify safe driving ability?
Having two jabs was supposed to give everyone immunity. The goalposts shifted and having two jabs was then reducing severe illness and preventing death. People who have had two jabs are still dying. People who have had two jabs still have to test, wear masks, potentially won’t be allowed into the EU if Merkel has her say....

Just get him to take a test before visiting. Surely? I mean there is always a practical answer for everything.

1. The vaccine doesn't make you immune immediately. I can't remember the exact figures but you get something like 30% protection 2-3 weeks after the first dose and 85+% protection 3-6 weeks after the second vaccine depending on which vaccine you were given. I believe the vaccines are licensed to be given 3+ weeks apart, currently in the UK they are given 8-12 weeks apart so you are potentially looking at 3-4 months from your first jab.

The vaccination program is a medium term solution to the covid pandemic with each wave of the virus there will be a smaller proportion of the community highly susceptible to catching the virus because they don't have the full immunity from the vaccine or they have elected not to have the vaccine.
The UK is heading into a third wave, all those that extremely vulnerable and were vaccinated in the early phases of the vaccination program will now all have the "full" protection from the vaccine (although 5-10 per 100 people in this group exposed to the virus could potentially catch it) so shouldn't contribute significantly to the number of cases. Likewise those with underlying conditions should all now have had both vaccines and should be approaching full protection if they haven't already.

That leaves the unvaccinated, those who so far have only had 1 vaccine and the unfortunate people who are "fully" vaccinated who still catch or transmit the virus to contract and/or become ill with the virus. By the 4th wave there will be a smaller pool of people highly susceptible to catching the virus by which point community transmission should be much easier to control.

I'm not knocking the vaccination program at all. I think it's great but I'm not sure the subtleties about what protection it offers and when have been adequately explained. It certainly plays a role in protecting the extremely vulnerable, the health services and the economy as a whole.

So to your question, should you let him visit if refusing to vaccinate himself. Maybe. Maybe not.

What else is he doing to protect himself, the broader community and your family? Does he generally take the virus and it's consequences seriously
We spent a week with our support bubble (under 1s) a little while ago and a member of the bubble is vulnerable to any infection currently. In the run up to the visit we did a lateral flow test 11 days before we were due to visit giving us time to isolate and get a PCR test should it be positive and then again the day before we left. We now do them at least once a week.
We did a shop that covered 2 weeks of food, 2 weeks before we left so we had no need to go to the shop in the 10 days before our planned departure. We went back a step in the lockdown opening up procedure to add a layer of extra precautions and were even more vigilant about masks, distance between us and other people, avoiding places with a high footfalls and washing and hand sanitising our hands after touching anything outside the home as we didn't want to catch any other bugs not just covid.

We were quite comfortable with this level of precaution and were able to have a lovely visit.

Things are pretty open now and most people in our family circle have been vaccinated at least once, most twice with an adequate delay. If we meet them indoors as currently permitted we are insisting on a negative lateral flow test on the day of the visit (we are also doing them) as well as checking whether they have been particularly reckless.

It helps us all feel more comfortable with visits and allowing parts of our lives return to normal even if some aspects aren't.

We will permit visiting from those that are making sensible precautions with or without vaccinations. Have a think about what would make you feel comfortable to have him visit having not had the vaccine.

@DownSideUpped

I know people who were safe drivers, and got into road accidents.

How on earth can you compare “safe drivers” to vaccinated people still catching covid? How do you quantify safe driving ability?
Having two jabs was supposed to give everyone immunity. The goalposts shifted and having two jabs was then reducing severe illness and preventing death. People who have had two jabs are still dying. People who have had two jabs still have to test, wear masks, potentially won’t be allowed into the EU if Merkel has her say....

This is untrue. I’m not aware of any vaccine that prevents 100% of cases. It was never sold as that and it was welcome news when most vaccines were 90%+ effective after trials.

The EU are doing everything they can to protect themselves because of their inadequate vaccination programme. In time, I’m sure they will be on board with lessening restrictions for double vaccinated people.

@Superscientist

1. The vaccine doesn't make you immune immediately. I can't remember the exact figures but you get something like 30% protection 2-3 weeks after the first dose and 85+% protection 3-6 weeks after the second vaccine depending on which vaccine you were given. I believe the vaccines are licensed to be given 3+ weeks apart, currently in the UK they are given 8-12 weeks apart so you are potentially looking at 3-4 months from your first jab.

The vaccination program is a medium term solution to the covid pandemic with each wave of the virus there will be a smaller proportion of the community highly susceptible to catching the virus because they don't have the full immunity from the vaccine or they have elected not to have the vaccine.
The UK is heading into a third wave, all those that extremely vulnerable and were vaccinated in the early phases of the vaccination program will now all have the "full" protection from the vaccine (although 5-10 per 100 people in this group exposed to the virus could potentially catch it) so shouldn't contribute significantly to the number of cases. Likewise those with underlying conditions should all now have had both vaccines and should be approaching full protection if they haven't already.

That leaves the unvaccinated, those who so far have only had 1 vaccine and the unfortunate people who are "fully" vaccinated who still catch or transmit the virus to contract and/or become ill with the virus. By the 4th wave there will be a smaller pool of people highly susceptible to catching the virus by which point community transmission should be much easier to control.

I'm not knocking the vaccination program at all. I think it's great but I'm not sure the subtleties about what protection it offers and when have been adequately explained. It certainly plays a role in protecting the extremely vulnerable, the health services and the economy as a whole.

So to your question, should you let him visit if refusing to vaccinate himself. Maybe. Maybe not.

What else is he doing to protect himself, the broader community and your family? Does he generally take the virus and it's consequences seriously
We spent a week with our support bubble (under 1s) a little while ago and a member of the bubble is vulnerable to any infection currently. In the run up to the visit we did a lateral flow test 11 days before we were due to visit giving us time to isolate and get a PCR test should it be positive and then again the day before we left. We now do them at least once a week.
We did a shop that covered 2 weeks of food, 2 weeks before we left so we had no need to go to the shop in the 10 days before our planned departure. We went back a step in the lockdown opening up procedure to add a layer of extra precautions and were even more vigilant about masks, distance between us and other people, avoiding places with a high footfalls and washing and hand sanitising our hands after touching anything outside the home as we didn't want to catch any other bugs not just covid.

We were quite comfortable with this level of precaution and were able to have a lovely visit.

Things are pretty open now and most people in our family circle have been vaccinated at least once, most twice with an adequate delay. If we meet them indoors as currently permitted we are insisting on a negative lateral flow test on the day of the visit (we are also doing them) as well as checking whether they have been particularly reckless.

It helps us all feel more comfortable with visits and allowing parts of our lives return to normal even if some aspects aren't.

We will permit visiting from those that are making sensible precautions with or without vaccinations. Have a think about what would make you feel comfortable to have him visit having not had the vaccine.

Excellent post.

Only 4.4% of Australia’s population is vaccinated. FIL is a twit but I don’t think it’s the remotest bit realistic to expect to be able to shield your daughter from unvaccinated people at this point in our slow and badly managed vaccine rollout.

I don’t know a single person, or know of a single person who knows a single person who has had covid since the pandemic started so I think you’re probably being a little too cautious, from your initial post i assumed you’d be in the uk.

It is individual choice whether to get vaccinated or not and I do think YABU to demand it of someone else. Especially as you only demand this of your FIL and no-one else. There is no discussion to be had, he's made his choice and you've made yours.

It is obviously your choice who you allow into your home.

This is untrue. I’m not aware of any vaccine that prevents 100% of cases. It was never sold as that and it was welcome news when most vaccines were 90%+ effective after trials.
It was sold (via media) that 90% effective meant 90% of vaccinated people wouldn’t catch it (or suffer from it, I should say). However, it actually meant that it had been shown in a controlled trail to be 90% better than not being vaccinated. So for every 1000 unvaxxed people getting severely ill there would be 100 vaxxed who would be severely ill. In the Pfizer trail, out of 20,000 unvaxxed people there were only around 188 that were flagged as severely ill, and of the 20,000 vaxxed there were only 9.. and that’s where the 95% efficacy figure came from (1-9/188). It’s a relative difference. It does not mean that 95% of double jabbed Pfizer recipients won’t get severely ill, and all unvaxxed people will get severely ill... but this is what the general public seem to believe. I’ve had very senior well educated people try to tell me that 95% efficacy means 95 out of 100 vaccinated people won’t get COVID.

It was sold (via media) that 90% effective meant 90% of vaccinated people wouldn’t catch it (or suffer from it, I should say).

No, it wasn’t. That wouldn’t make sense, either statistically or medically. It might have been what you understood, but it’s not what was said. And even if it had been what was said, wouldn’t you have thought, “Well, how does that work, then?”

No, it wasn’t. That wouldn’t make sense, either statistically or medically. It might have been what you understood, but it’s not what was said. And even if it had been what was said, wouldn’t you have thought, “Well, how does that work, then?”

It’s not what I understood, because I know what efficacy means. It’s what people around me said, over and over. People saying (real example) that if all 100 people in our music group get vaccinated then only 5 of them are at risk of catching covid. This was said by (in writing) a barrister.