S@“t has hit the fan. What would you do?

[Whotsithitthefan]

NC as outing. Long time poster.

I can’t sleep. DH had left. Sleeping in the car somewhere I think. DM here staying. DC being bullied at school and so is being a nightmare at home. Once he’s talked about what’s going on he’s fine but while he’s holding it all in, quite frankly, he’s a grumpy thug.

DH approach is long lectures. Reminding DC of past difficult behaviour. Criticising. Telling off. He takes it very personally when DC insults him or is rude to him. Won’t let it go.

I tend to try and listen first as there is always a context and then discuss the difficult behaviour once things are calm and I think DC can reflect.

Tonight DC was acting up. I stayed out of it as DH doesn’t like me taking over and finds it undermining if I offer a different approach. He wants me to back him up but I can’t because I feel like DC would then feel the whole world was against him/her and I don’t want to join in the critical lecture and when I do try and back DH up things just escalate anyway.

So I focused tonight on clearing up and left DH and DC to it. Meanwhile I don’t realise that DM is finding the way DH is talking to DC unbearable. She had told me earlier and I had a bit of a moan as I’m finding it hard.

I then hear really raised voices. DM shouting at DH that he is abusing DC with his criticism and domineering. She’s very upset. He’s really angry with her. DC joining in.

I stood between them and just repeated ‘time out’ over and over. DH kept going and going. When I kept saying time out DC would join in and told DH he’s a psycho. DH finally left and I managed to get DC calm and to sleep.

I’m in bed but can’t sleep as I can see it from all angles and have no clue what to do.

DC ‘full up’ emotionally and feeling particularly got at by DH. Deliberately pushes him because he knows he loses the plot and is testing him. The behaviours need addressing but also DC is a child and is overwhelmed at the moment.

DH is feeling blamed by me and unsupported by me. Feels like I get in the way of their relationship and turn DC against him because I’ll stick up for DC if I feel DH is out of order. I have been trying to stay out of it but it’s hard when it’s a child getting it in the neck. Tonight I stayed out of it apart from ‘time out’ when it was getting too heated. DH is sleeping in his car somewhere refusing to ever talk to my DM ever again. Wants us out of the house tomorrow at one point so he can change for work. Telling me I’m toxic and causing him MH issues (I can be quite critical to be fair) but I feel he’s the one whose being toxic to DC who should be the priority.

DM now in bits because she thinks she’s ‘ruined my life’.

Have today tried to be calm and have supported both DC and DM with their stuff. Feeling too cross with DH to support him much but am worried about him.

Feel like no one is supporting me. I hold the emotional stuff for them all but what about me? AIBU to wish there was someone in my life that was calm and steady to ‘hold’ things together.

How do I handle things tomorrow? I’ll have to do the school run so ‘brave face’ on. Then I know DM will be distraught. God knows if DH will get in touch.

Just needed to get this out and hope someone is awake and had some advice. I need to get some sleep.

I thought you were going to say he was 16 or something OP, blimey this kid is under 10.

What an awful situation but your mother should not apologise for standing up to your husband bullying your child. Your husband has serious problems and needs to sort them out. Sounds like he is also bullying you into submission as you are so worried about his ego.

My DH can be negative and I lost it with him last week, I usually back him up if he is fair or give him the benefit of the doubt but he wasn't being fair. I had to point out the percentage of his interactions which are negative compared to positive and because he spends less time than them. Even if I pull them up on things the same amount I'm doing way more positive stuff as well. He took that onboard.

Something that stands out here, you said last night you were going to watch so crap tv and try to relax and in your last comment you were going to get yourself nice pastries, looking after yourself, nothing wrong with that. But not once, and I may be wrong have you said anything about your ds in this respect, the way you speak about him being a thug etc, the way you don't protect him, I feel you are complicit in your husbands abuse of him. Also whilst going through all this therapy to help you and your husband, your child is still being bullied in his home. I think you need to sort your situation out now!

Whotsithitthefan you say you havent posted before yet in your OP you state you have NC as a long time poster. So I am not convinced it isnt you. A bullying name calling DH whose DS is acting out

@thecatfromjapan

'He’s a good dad I’m so many ways but this is his Achilles heel. If he feels disrespected or under valued.'

People who kick off with aggression (which is what your DH did) when they feel disrespected or devalued' are actually quite scary, OP.

I agree with this. Your child is still very little, is your dc a girl or a boy ? If a boy they will learn that this aggressive behaviour is the way to win an argument, if a girl they will learn that men getting very angry when their ego is dented is normal.

Good luck, OP.

I'm no counsellor but I reckon an issue here is that your DH's confidence has taken a massive knock since losing work. I suspect he's scared about his future.

He's slipped back into childhood patterns. He models parenting he had (not helpful) and he also responds to you with anger he feels towards his own parents.

That's all quite messy. I hope you can address all that in counselling.

But your DH is an adult. He's still on the young side - work will pick up. He's been gifted a wife who is not his motber, who responds to him with empathy - so he needs to acknowledge that. And he is an adult now, not a child, so he needs to acknowledge his power and autonomy - that will make him a better husband and father - and, crucially, will make him happier.

I think you've been put in a weird place. You can see your child is a child. But, weirdly, your DH is kind of making you see him (your DH) as a child, too.

There's always a bit of that dynamic in a marriage, most of us have moments when we want our partners to 'child' us (when we want to be cared for with the love a parent, not an adult partner, might give - eg. when we feel overwhelmed by an unpleasant incident) but it can turn into a messy dynamic.

Well, you can talk about all of that with a counsellor.

Good luck. Moves are stressful. The pandemic has been stressful. Losing work is awful. The uncertainty of the future can throw us back into learned patterns that are unhelpful.

But the great thing about humans is that we can reflect and change if we are willing.

Hope everything gets settled with your child. It's tough changing schools and trying to fit in with new (settled) groups and to assert yourself. The groups will try and force an identity on your son in order to fit him into the pre-existing shapes and roles. That identity may not be 'him'. And he may be a target for some power-wielding behaviour. Both those situations easily become bullying. Hope the school get it sorted. Hope he finds a place/role in the group that suits him. I'm sure he will.

Anyway, all the best, good luck, and have a good day. 💐

Agree with every word libraries…I really thought that people nowadays were more aware of MH issues in young males !

@TatianaBis

DS does push DH to the max. He knows the buttons to press. Not an excuse and actually this is typical in these situations as children try and figure out where the edges are. But I think that DH is a good parent (certainly wants to be) that is a bit depressed, had an unhealthy model of parenting himself and has got stuck in a cycle and is being very tested by DS.

He’s a child that’s what children do. Please stop victim blaming your child and open your eyes to the source of the problem.

This. Kids have a limited way of dealing with issues. By getting in first he is trying to head off a worsening situation. If you allow this dynamic to continue, you will be raising a clone of DH. Step in, break the cycle. He would be out if he were my old man. Demanding respect when he doesn't earn it - fuck that.

I can't add anything to the many excellent posts (particularly @thecatfromjapan and the short but to the point one from @agododopushpineapple ) but I'd just like to make two points:

I then hear really raised voices. DM shouting at DH that he is abusing DC with his criticism and domineering. She’s very upset. He’s really angry with her. DC joining in. I stood between them and just repeated ‘time out’ over and over. DH kept going and going. When I kept saying time out DC would join in and told DH he’s a psycho. DH finally left and I managed to get DC calm and to sleep.
Isn't it interesting how when your mother and husband were arguing, it was your husband who kept going and going? He had to have the last word and when his behaviour is challenged, he stormed out? She's upset, but he is angry?

Your husband calls your child names? That's not discipline or parenting. It's disgusting. And I don't know you but my heart is breaking for that kid who is being bullied at school, in after school club and then comes home and the adult supposed to care for them calls them names too?

Librariesmakeshhhhappen

Authoritative = high warmth and clear consistent goals. It’s the most helpful for child development

Authoritarian = cold and very firm boundaries. Includes ranty lectures.

I aim for the first and mostly make it. Occasionally fall into shouty authoritarian but most of my fails as a parent are of the passive end (lots of love with inconsistent unclear or no boundaries)

Hope this helps.

The Explosive Child by Ross Greene

or maybe something like
How to Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen so Kids Will Talk

I've never found it helpful when DGP get involved with discipline - though we've never been screaming in a child's face - and TBH always felt it was more about underming us than anything else. So not sure what to advice there but I don't think your mum needs to apologise and frankly DH should be able to get home and change without either of you having to leave the property.

You need to talk to the school about the bullying - and try and get it sorted.

I'd also try for outside school activies to help with confidence but obvioulsy not easy at the minute.

Clearly a long converstaion with DH - you can't go on with this. You need a united front on parenting and if that's not possible something big is going to have to change - he's the adult and even when a child is button presing he needs to act like it.

Though I also wouldn't be letting pass any attitude or rude lanaguage in speach to me even if it 'doesn't set me off'- because it shows a lack of respect and modeling correct behavior in home helps develop it outside and frankly if you don't deal with it now you have no chance as they get older. I can check it with a look or comment - but that took work and I wonder if you're letting it slip as your feeling worn down and frightened the child will kick off.

In any case I think you need a plan for dealing with DH and one for dealing with the child - hopefully together but if not you still need one.

Dear OP, I was you 3 years ago and I send you every ounce of love and strength that I can.

Without all the details, I am now in my own house with my dcs and it is a happy, respectful and kind place to live.

You have much wise advice on here. Please sort out the situation as the actions of abuse in the past have implications into the future. Xx

@Whotsithitthefan

Ok. It just didnt seem like that's how you were using the word. The way you said you wanted to be authoritative, and managed it 60% of the time and you shout rather than lecture like your husband. It just came across a little bit like your goal was to be shouty rather than the two other options; passive or lecturing.

Sorry for the mix up libraries. I’m very tired! No my goal is most definitely not to be more shouty!

mynameisbrian*

Not posted on here about this! Have about other things. Lots of other things. I don’t want this linked to my other posts as this is clearly much more personal. Other posts have been less revealing. Why would I lie? I can’t see anything to be gained from that?

@Whotsithitthefan I noticed you haven't talked about your mum in any of your updates. Hope this isn't prying but is there a reason for that? Agree with PP that she did nothing wrong and I think you need to tell her she didn't "ruin" your marriage.

Eat pastries? Eat your emotion away??? Good god, first time in my life I've ever wished a boy to speak up at school and get social services involved!! Unless of course you have told your husband to stay at a hotel all week and you and grandma are spending every night doing fun activities with son and building up his confidence??? I hope I'm not wrong which one it is. On the plus side, this post has tipped me over to the side of fostering a teen. I have always been interested and I think now is the time!

So wish I’d no mentioned the pastries. They are comfort food in a time of crisis!!

Read my posts fully before judging me as a bad mum. I have had about two hours sleep. Am at an emotional rock bottom. I got up and put all of that to one side because first and foremost I am a mum. I made sure my DC had a calm morning. Checked in with him how was doing. Let the teacher know what’s going on. He’s fine and has a plan to join forces with his friends to beat the bullies by always including everyone. When he’s feeling resourced he’s such a sweetheart. The pastries were self care to help me feel a bit of comfort. If you see my PP you’ll see plenty of evidence that I’m a committed and dedicated parent that hit a blind spot with DH behaviour but is dealing with it. Please read all PP before judging.

Re DM. We have had a good chat. I reassured her she did the right thing. We haven’t left. She is resting in bed as it’s been a bit emotional. DH is here showering. Hasn’t spoken to me. Have had a text saying I am negging him and am coercive and controlling in amongst other things. Blaming me entirely. I think this is the nail in the coffin.

"I stood between them and just repeated ‘time out’ over and over.

DH kept going and going.

When I kept saying time out DC would join in and told DH he’s a psycho."

The middle line is chilling. Your DH is not able to listen to either you or your DC. What was your DM doing when you two were trying to call a halt? Did she respect you and stop? Join you?

Your DC firstly cannot stop the belittling behaviour at school, and he is both unable to do so at home (even with backup), and learning 'how' the powerful party likes to deal with such things in the family and dominate weaker people. Can't your DH see this? And how this is very likely to stir up the whole pot as far as your DC's models go for handling or whipping up his school situations? Peacemaking won't get you so far here. You are the adult but you have 1 powerless real child and 1 enraged one in a man's head.

Deal with the school. There is excellent advice in the 'grow a pair' post upthread. Deal with your DH, with a counsellor. What can you do to bring him back to a rational adult when in these situations? OK, not tolerating shouting psycho at him, but he cannot be engaged with unless he will find it in himself to stop.

Have had a text saying I am negging him and am coercive and controlling in amongst other things. Blaming me entirely.

I reckon that's a text from the little boy your DH was to his parent.

How incredibly frustrating for you.

Definitely bring it up in counselling. You'll soon know whether it's something you can address and work through, or whether it isn't.

If you’re a committed and dedicated parent that’s great - and you need to focus on finding a way to separate from your DH to protect your son.

I really hope you manage to effect that. Having a mum to rely is a invaluable.

He's just using buzzwords to make you stop, get sympathy, prepare for when next speaking with your counsellor. He can never see himself as the problem so it'll always be your fault and, even worse, it'll always be the child's fault.

You just need to leave. The marriage is over.

Have you considered the possibility that your son might be being bullied at his new school because he lives with a bully for a father, @Whotsithitthefan?

Even before you wrote about the text saying that you're nagging, coercive, controlling... I was thinking that your husband is an out-and-out bully. The fact that he was "screaming" in your ill mother's face when she dared to stand up for her grandson. The flouncing off in a temper (tantrum). The way in which he has you walking on eggshells. All trademarks of a bully. And your son is desperately trying to stand up for himself on all sides - at home, and at school. You say that he was fine this morning, had a resourceful plan (good for him!) about how to deal with the bullies at school... might he have been fine, because your husband left? Might he be hoping that his father doesn't come home again? That one part of his young life is going to be bully-free?

You sound like a decent mum. Warm, loving, on your child's wavelength more often than not. Your own mother sounds like she'll gladly do battle for both of you - and accepts/is sorry for the part she played in all of this. Which you, yourself, say that you can understand the "why" of. I daresay you'd do exactly the same if/when it's your own grandchild in need of an ally against an overbearing, pompous, actually sounds quite nasty bully of a parent.

I'm sorry, because I very rarely say this, but I genuinely think your child would be happier if you garnered all of the self-esteem and confidence which your husband has whittled away from you - and left him.

And I don't know you but my heart is breaking for that kid who is being bullied at school, in after school club and then comes home and the adult supposed to care for them calls them names too?

This! I am finding this so upsetting to read. Your poor little boy.

Maybe DH does need counselling but he can get that whilst he lives elsewhere - somewhere where he isn't able to abuse children.

You haven't answered the posters who have asked if DS is DH son?

To be honest here, if you don't get DS to safety, you are as much to blame for all this as your DH is. You are his mum FGS. The person who is supposed to protect him.

I know it's hard but I really hope you find the strength to take action.

Whotsithitthefan this must be really tough. If was there I'd make you a and give you an unmumsnetty (((hug)))

I was involved with two men who very much weren't right for me, for many years. One was just a bit useless and selfish, but the end result was he treated me badly. And the next was actually manipulative and abusive.

It took me a long time to realise that I'd been conditioned to put others first, to be reasonable, and that actually, this isn't always the appropriate response.

I was reminded of this upthread when you were talking about how you were trying to respect your DH's feelings about being undermined.

But actually, has he been respecting your thoughts and feelings on this subject? He hasn't and seems unable to.

Sometimes, you know what, you ARE in the right, and you don't need to try to see if from other people's points of view. Especially if that person is being controlling and domineering.

If he's not used to you not backing down, and you're used to considering his feelings, then this bit will be tough. He'll likely be very unsettled as he feels the power he has over you slipping away and will push your buttons as much as he can to make you fall back in line.

But, you have all of us behind you and - most importantly - your mum too.

I haven’t RTFT, but, good on your DM. Your DC will forever remember her having his back and that is what he needs right now.

I wish you well OP