S@“t has hit the fan. What would you do?

[Whotsithitthefan]

NC as outing. Long time poster.

I can’t sleep. DH had left. Sleeping in the car somewhere I think. DM here staying. DC being bullied at school and so is being a nightmare at home. Once he’s talked about what’s going on he’s fine but while he’s holding it all in, quite frankly, he’s a grumpy thug.

DH approach is long lectures. Reminding DC of past difficult behaviour. Criticising. Telling off. He takes it very personally when DC insults him or is rude to him. Won’t let it go.

I tend to try and listen first as there is always a context and then discuss the difficult behaviour once things are calm and I think DC can reflect.

Tonight DC was acting up. I stayed out of it as DH doesn’t like me taking over and finds it undermining if I offer a different approach. He wants me to back him up but I can’t because I feel like DC would then feel the whole world was against him/her and I don’t want to join in the critical lecture and when I do try and back DH up things just escalate anyway.

So I focused tonight on clearing up and left DH and DC to it. Meanwhile I don’t realise that DM is finding the way DH is talking to DC unbearable. She had told me earlier and I had a bit of a moan as I’m finding it hard.

I then hear really raised voices. DM shouting at DH that he is abusing DC with his criticism and domineering. She’s very upset. He’s really angry with her. DC joining in.

I stood between them and just repeated ‘time out’ over and over. DH kept going and going. When I kept saying time out DC would join in and told DH he’s a psycho. DH finally left and I managed to get DC calm and to sleep.

I’m in bed but can’t sleep as I can see it from all angles and have no clue what to do.

DC ‘full up’ emotionally and feeling particularly got at by DH. Deliberately pushes him because he knows he loses the plot and is testing him. The behaviours need addressing but also DC is a child and is overwhelmed at the moment.

DH is feeling blamed by me and unsupported by me. Feels like I get in the way of their relationship and turn DC against him because I’ll stick up for DC if I feel DH is out of order. I have been trying to stay out of it but it’s hard when it’s a child getting it in the neck. Tonight I stayed out of it apart from ‘time out’ when it was getting too heated. DH is sleeping in his car somewhere refusing to ever talk to my DM ever again. Wants us out of the house tomorrow at one point so he can change for work. Telling me I’m toxic and causing him MH issues (I can be quite critical to be fair) but I feel he’s the one whose being toxic to DC who should be the priority.

DM now in bits because she thinks she’s ‘ruined my life’.

Have today tried to be calm and have supported both DC and DM with their stuff. Feeling too cross with DH to support him much but am worried about him.

Feel like no one is supporting me. I hold the emotional stuff for them all but what about me? AIBU to wish there was someone in my life that was calm and steady to ‘hold’ things together.

How do I handle things tomorrow? I’ll have to do the school run so ‘brave face’ on. Then I know DM will be distraught. God knows if DH will get in touch.

Just needed to get this out and hope someone is awake and had some advice. I need to get some sleep.

@Librariesmakeshhhhappen

Over time, males aged 10 to 24 years have always had the lowest rates. However, following a period of recent stability in the suicide rate for this group, in 2018 the rate increased significantly to 8.2 deaths per 100,000 males (440 deaths), and the rate has remained the same in 2019 (8.2) with 442 deaths.

There you go. From your own link.
I dont know why you're trying to argue that young men/boys are not at increasing risk? Whatd your agenda here?

Look at worldwide reports as well. Same story.

It's just something we should all be thinking about. When our child is in extreme stress, at school and at home, refusing to take any action to help them simply isnt acceptable for many reasons. Their mental health is one of those reasons.

You just ignored the point I made. OP's child is about 8 years old. There were 11 deaths in the 10-14 age group in 2019. 11.

You and one other poster, for some reason, are rubbing your hands with glee telling this woman who's already struggling with her child, husband and mother that her child is at high risk of suicide.

Which is utter, utter bullshit and completely irrelevant to the actual events she is experiencing. You are then trying to pretend that I am ignorant or have 'an agenda' for pointing out that this whole tangent is completely irrelevant, scaremongering crap.

You really should just drop it now. It's meaningless and totally unhelpful.

I think the only person in the wrong here is DH. DC is a child and DM was right to call out bullying behaviour from DH.

DH needs to grow up or fuck off.

You and your husband are not parenting together.

You are all acting emotionally. He's getting upset and shouting whilst you are standing there flapping and not knowing what to do.

You are responding to things rather than being proactive.

At no point does it sound like you are communicating effectively with each other or with your son.

No one is sitting down calmly at a time when emotions aren't running high and coming up with an agreed plan and strategy. Instead - screaming matches and lectures.

You aren't effectively challenging inappropriate behaviour from your husband. This is what your son is learning - how to act inappropriately and aggressively. If your husband is shouting in your mothers face, how are you interpreting this as a problem in terms of your mother's involvement??

Why is it you are not intervening more? Is it because you are too scared to / have been brainwashed into thinking you are 'undermining' his parenting by rightly pointing out that its not actually parenting and completely inappropriate behaviour. The fact you are a spectator to all this rather than an active participant and only play the role of peace maker where the compromise / accomodation of behaviour relates only to your husband is a massive red flag.

You put this post because you KNOW the problem is ultimately your husband, but you put blame on your mother - in part because she's point this out and you don't want to admit this to yourself. Because you play the role of the peacemaker and always appease your husband and this is the cycle you've got stuck in. Because its the easiest way to stop the latest screaming match - but not the cycle you are caught in.

You need to break the cycle - and the issue lies with you centring your husband and not your child.

Think about it.

Blimey. Just caught up with all of the replies. Thank you so much everyone for taking time to post. Even the critical ones. It’s helpful to hear all views.

FrancineSmith Thank you. That’s given me some hope.

A couple of things to clarify;

I do step in and stop DH if it’s getting too heated or lengthy. It’s caused arguments as he then feels undermined and blames this for the lack of respect DC shows him. It’s clearly much more than that. I’m not a weak or meek person. In fact I’m quite feisty. I stepped back recently because I thought may be DH was right. This thread has helped me realise that I’d lost my confidence in myself and actually i need to trust my instincts.

The move was a family decision. We all talked about it at length and all views were taken into account. It was a lifestyle choice rather than work and we wouldn’t have done it if everyone wasn’t up for it. The school seems good and they are taking action. DS was very pleased to see the main bully get thoroughly told off last week. DS only disclosed it the week before last so it’s eRly days. The kids in the after school clubs dont go to the same school.

It’s helpful to hear that these long laborious forced lectures are seen by the majority as being abusive or bullying. It’s helped me to feel more certain about it. I feel I’ve got MNs behind me when I tell him it’s not ok.

DS does push DH to the max. He knows the buttons to press. Not an excuse and actually this is typical in these situations as children try and figure out where the edges are. But I think that DH is a good parent (certainly wants to be) that is a bit depressed, had an unhealthy model of parenting himself and has got stuck in a cycle and is being very tested by DS. He wants to do it differently. I think last night will make it or it will break it. He’ll either turn it around or we will have to split. I’m ambivalent about that. I’d much rather a happy family unit but if it can’t be happy then it can’t be.

I haven’t posted before now. DH has never chased DS. That’s not me.

DS went into school fine this morning. A bit of resistance but it was mild. Had a nice peaceful morning. I checked in with him and he’s ok. I let the teacher know so they can keep an eye on how he’s doing.

I’m going to get nice pastries for breakfast and eat my emotions just for today, with a nice cuppa.

I’ve messaged DH. Didn’t want to talk as wanted to make sure my message was loud and clear and that I didn’t get sucked into a slanging match. I said that this has to NEVER happen again amongst other things.

I am overly critical and grumpy with him as I’m hormonal. He’s ground down by that. It’s not an excuse but it is something I need to work on. As well as being more consistent with boundaries.

I’ve been clear that I will not back him up when he lectures and that we need to either use the same relationship focused model of parenting or I need to do it on my own. I’m not being dramatic. That’s the case. I can’t parent how I want to if he’s being authoritarian.

I’m not a passive parent - try to be authoritative and manage it around 60/70% of the time I think. I need to up that to 90. I can swing into authoritarian particularly if that’s the mode DH is using. It’s catching but I don’t do the long lectures. I shout. However I’m more likely to slip into passive if anything - quite often that’s through exhaustion or I’ve become helpless in the face of DH authoritarian approach. That changes today.

Thanks so much for your time all. Those that have shown me empathy you have really helped me to feel better. Those that have challenged me you really helped me to get some clarity.

Sorry the jumbled post. Very tired!

Wishing you all health and happiness

@HaplotypeK

Anyone trying to shut down discussion about mental health is the problem. And it's why mental health is still seen, by some, as shameful.

Your figures dont take take into account attempted suicide, or children just talking about suicide, of needing help because they are at risk of it.

You can pretend all you like that this is something parent's do not need to consider, but it is.

Just like OP needs to consider what this will be doing to her child's confidence, to his ability to concentrate in school, to his ability to control his own temper, she needs to consider the impact on his mental health. Suicide is not the main outcome, of course, there are many things which could stem from a bad childhood. The problem is, that the OP doesnt seem concerned about any of it. All her posts are about how her husband feels and how she can make him feel better and get him back home. She isnt thinking about the child. And she really really needs to.

Oh, and you're the only one who seems to be frothing at the mouth, jumping up and down and enjoying this discussion. The 3 posters who have said it's something to think about it have been really simple and plain about it. In dramatising or shouting or any of your nonsense.

It sounds like your son is being bullied at school and lives with a bully at home. I’m not surprised he is acting a bit like a “thug”. He is mid Primary, so I’m guessing around 8? He needs a safe haven and he needs you to be his advocate. It seems there has been a lot of consideration of your H’s feelings (not intervening soon enough when he is bullying your son for fear of hurting his feelings for example). I think it’s clear what needs to be done, you need to give your son a safe space without fear of being called names and shouted at by his own father. If I was in this position then H would be packing his bags.

Please don't less your abusive bully of a husband control everyone in this way. It leaves scars on a child. My 'D'M used to stand by whilst F did his bullying, physical and mental. I have never forgiven either of him, and its left its mark. When my daughter's father started on her, it was the beginning of the end. i divorced him. He is now hated by his new (fortunately adult) stepchildren. You need to be the Good Parent here. He doesn't seem to be able to be . Or won't. I suspect won't. If I was your DM and you asked me to text him, I would tell you to shove it where the sun don't shine, and I would be in a taxi leaving you to it on your own.

I feel there is a real disconnect in what the OP is saying.

On the one hand, she’s explained his behavior is bad and he accepts this and is trying to change BUT he then does it again, is unapologetic and is angry because the MIL interfered.

He’s a great dad, is doing parenting classes and trying to be a better person BUT he doesn’t seem to accept his faults and blames his problems on the OP.

He’s doing parenting courses BUT calls his son names.

My advice is to look at his actions rather than listen to his words. I still think he is manipulating you with his words, so you don’t accept the truth. I also don’t think he has an intention of changing. He just tells you what he thinks you want to hear so you won’t leave. You don’t really buy it but you doubt yourself too much to take action, so it works.

@Whotsithitthefan

There is just so much wrong with what you've just typed but may I just clarify something?

Are you under the impression that being the authoritative parent is a good thing? You said you manage it 60/70% of the time but want to get it up to 90%. And you said that you dont lecture, your shout... and again, you want to get that up to 90% of your parenting time?

Is that what you meant? That's your goal?

If yes, then you really really need to get some help. There's nothing else to say. Just get some help. Now.

@Notimeforaname

OK. I hate to say this but I think your annoyance with your mother is misplaced I agree with this.

Absolutely. She stood up for your child when you wouldn’t. Your bloke should be apologising to all of you.

I'm sorry you and your son (and your DH to some extent) are going through this. A few things to say:

1. I don't like long lectures at the ripe old age of my mid-fifties. I switch off if someone is on a rant and I can't get away. Until I reach the point of bellowing 'enough for God's sake. I heard you the first time'. But a kid can't do that without being seen as being rude? Why not? Don't get in your kid's face - they need to learn to deal with things calmly and they learn that from their parents. Or you get DH repeated ad infinitum...

2. Short and 'sharp' is the way with kids if they are misbehaving (meaning say what you mean in as few words as possible, not 'sharp' as in nasty). Like 'that word is unacceptable. Tone it down and we can talk' or 'shouting is not helping. I lose the words if you shout'. Someone taught me to lower my voice if someone is shouting - they have to shut up to hear you! Then a 'let's sit down and you can speak to me calmly'. Then listen. We, as parents, don't listen enough to our kids. We misinterpret children who don't have a vocabulary big enough to tell us the problem yet. We project. We panic in our heads when we hear bullying and don't actually listen to what that is. Half the time, with DS, all he needed was a few ideas on how to manage the bully. But we would ask him if he wanted those ideas - if not, we'd leave it until he did. We even used to do role-plays if he wanted to! We didn't want him to end up in trouble for dealing with the bully so we taught him some assertive phrases, taught him how to stand to show he was in charge, taught him how to tell the teacher - what to say when you don't have the words. And told him that we will back him up with the school.

3. If, and it's very occasional, DH and DS (who is now 14 years old ... joy) are having a shouting match I don't call 'time out'. It needs to be decisive. What do you need them to do? So my jumping in statement is 'DS, upstairs please NOW. DH, sit on the sofa please NOW'. Separate them so the goading each other stops. If they can hear each other, they can't hear you. Then sit quietly with each one and explain what they need to do.

4. DH's behaviour (not excusable) could be coming from his background and he may not know how to deal with his DS. Every first or only child is a training ground unfortunately. That's no excuse for his behaviour - he's the adult - but it could be a reason. If the relationship (you and DS or just DS if the marriage is over) is to continue he has to learn or be guided about the best way to get things done. He's on a repeat button from his own parents but, if you didn't have guiding parents or empathetic parents, you're starting from a negative place.

5. I got a fantastic book when DS was little and we were having problems figuring out why he'd suddenly become a difficult. It's called 'How to talk so kids listen and listen so kids talk'. I only used it for a few months, finally getting the message that DS was having problems at school and just didn't know how to verbalise it (lack of vocabulary...). When he realised that he could just say something, anything, to start then we'd help him drill down to the problem, he was a changed child. I use the techniques still to this day and DH always says I manage DS's teenage tantrums better than he does (most of the time - I'm not a saint and there have been stand up arguments. But they finish in a hug, apologies and a bit of banter). DS knows he can talk to us and I broach all sorts of subjects with him. But I've learned how to back off and pick my time.

I agree with you, your mum doesn't need to apologise. Neither do either of you need to be out of the house. That's not DH's call to make. He needs to be man enough to face people if he's made a mistake (but this is the little boy who always had lectures/strict controls/conditional love coming out). He's expecting the lectures to start. Unlike your DS, he has control over that (hence the 'you two need to be out of the way')

i think you need to get out of the mindset of passive/authoritative.

What you need is Firm, calm, and nurturing.

Its tone, not volume that matters. I dont shout at my kids, its not to say i dont get angry, because i do, but i deal with their unwanted behaviour in a firm, controlled manner.

There was a suggestion upthread of a book called "1,2,3 Magic" and i'm going to also recommend it, my teen DS has autism/adhd and i've found that book a godsend.

I basically give them warnings to stop and what will happen if it doesn't and make it clear that their behaviour is unacceptable, i explain why, then i sanction if the warnings don't work.

note this ^ is different from handling DS when he is in a meltdown, at that time, his emotional wellbeing is priority and i handle that first BEFORE i talk him through his behaviour.

“HaplotypeK“
Re: the long term consequences of bullying at home and at school being so very harmful that some children ( boys) take their own life. You say there are very few instances of this in the age group relevant to the OP.

But you are being too specific in that this last resort might be taken at the end of the teens or as a young adult as a long term consequence of the early bullying.

Another consequence can be drug abuse or depression.

I’m so sorry to hear you’re in the middle of all this. I think the presence of your mum will be inflaming this at the moment. Can she go back to her home to give you some space to work things out?

I don't understand why you say you want to be authoritative 90% of the time, particularly when the alternatives seem to be lecturing or shouting? Maybe it's just the way you've expressed it, as I get the impression that actually that isn't your usual style and your usual style works?

It sounds like you have had a revelationary moment but please never consider something like your Mum apologising to your DH again. While you think like that, you genuinely do not have a handle on this.

Try co parently from different homes. It might be the only solution that protects your childs mental health.

I grew up with a friend whose mother put the husband before her daughter. The daughter moved in with her grandparents and was raised by them to escape the horrible dynamic. She did this from the age of nine. This was before there was a proper social services etc. and random stuff like this just happened within families. Knowing the family though, one of them would have ended up dead and that is not me being dramatic. There was no other way to de-escalate it all as no one would step back and sort it out.

Have you read Philipa Perry's book 'The book you wish your parents have read and your children will be glad you did'? It really helpful at looking back at your own up bringing and seeing how this affects our parenting. I found it really helpful, it's consise and also available on audiobook. To me it sounds like your empathetic approach is what's needed and very much inline with what Perry suggests. I hope you're doing okay today.

In the case of a primary school aged child, the problem lies solely and squarely with DH.

Your mum can see it and good for her she stood up to him.

Your DH is a bully and you’re letting him bully your child OP. If you let this continue your child could develop serious mental health issues and even if they don’t they may never forgive you.

If what you described happened in my house, DH would be out for good.

You must step up to protect your child, stop making excuses for your DH’s abuse. He needs to leave the house OP.

This undermining authority ... I don't get.

My husband has issues with our son and is similar to your husband at times. I'm pretty sure it's because his dad was absent from a young age and his step dad was a bully and basically he hasn't had a good example of parenting/fathering - also a lot of the shit his SD gave him he repeats with our son.

BUT - I've always stood up for our son. I always think sod the undermining stuff - why is supporting bullying and unkind parenting more important than protecting a young child - why is that called undermining?

DS does push DH to the max. He knows the buttons to press. Not an excuse and actually this is typical in these situations as children try and figure out where the edges are. But I think that DH is a good parent (certainly wants to be) that is a bit depressed, had an unhealthy model of parenting himself and has got stuck in a cycle and is being very tested by DS.

He’s a child that’s what children do. Please stop victim blaming your child and open your eyes to the source of the problem.

I think that shame has to be taken in to account here. You have a husband with an upbringing that was overly critical. This causes shame in children. Shame is such a toxic emotion that we humans try and avoid it at all costs. Shame is what is felt when we have been rejected by our group.

When our shame gets triggered (and it is easily triggered in your husband as it is a familiar state for him) we need to try and discharge that, stop feeling it and we will do whatever we can to do that. Some people people please, some people shut down, your husband is doing what was role modelled to him - he is criticising others and trying to put his shame on them. The others in your situation being your son, you, your mum. And you want him to feel better so you take on some of his shame, you can see it in your posts.

I am sure some of your reaction in wanting to support your husband is that you can sense the young, shamed child in him that is being displayed in his parenting style. The overly criticised boy in him absolutely deserves compassion.

The problem comes when his shame turns in to abuse of others which is happening and now you have a conflict. You can support your husband or your son, but not always both.

These patterns of behaviour get passed down from generation to generation. Your MIL was probably criticised and shamed herself, she did the same to her son and he is now doing it to his son.

Your son, who everyone is rightly trying to protect in the replies here may well turn in to a criticising parent himself and then he will not be treated with compassion and empathy, he will be viewed as an emotionally abusive bully himself.

The cycle needs to be stopped, if it is not stopped it is reproduced.

What a difficult situation. This sounds to me like you are almost on tip toes in case something sets your DH off. If as a mother you feel that your child is being unfairly or disproportionately told off / shouted at / punished then it’s your job to step in as his mother- not to let it continue for fear of an even angrier outburst from his father.
Will he even discuss this (the harshness on a young child?) children have reasons for their behaviours. You need to unpack that and find out why but in the meantime you can’t let a grown man treat him like that

@TatianaBis

In the case of a primary school aged child, the problem lies solely and squarely with DH.

Your mum can see it and good for her she stood up to him.

Your DH is a bully and you’re letting him bully your child OP. If you let this continue your child could develop serious mental health issues and even if they don’t they may never forgive you.

If what you described happened in my house, DH would be out for good.

You must step up to protect your child, stop making excuses for your DH’s abuse. He needs to leave the house OP.

I agree with this 100%.

Is DS DH child? He calls him abusive names? A child he knows is being bullied at primary school?

I don't really understand why you would want him back in your home at all. Your poor DS.

Have you tried just putting your son first and telling this abusive dick to go somewhere and sort himself out? Your poor boy doesn’t stand a chance. Thank god your mum has a spine. At least he saw his nan try to protect him.

This is a really difficult situation. I feel for you.
Others have said some useful stuff about your partner.

I'm just going to offer something about how to really bat back the bullying situation to the school. This is orginally where the situation has arisen, and they should be doing more to prevent it.

I have dealt with this more than once, with different schools, both when I was married (now ex husband only had criticism of me to offer one reason why he is now an ex)
dealing with it again as single parent family later on, was difficult in a different way, and quite a lonely business, had to dig deep to find the strength.

It helped that I had experience of being a parent governor of a primary school and understood a bit more about best practice and how things should be dealt with, but secondary school was really not adhering to best practice i..e zero tolerance of bullying and in the end as a result partly of my complaints to the school, the head resigned.

As a parent, I listened to my child and tried in the first instance to strenghten their ability to stand up for themselves, and report bullying they were experiencing to a member of staff. Also peer support was important from friends in their peer group.

Advice I was given by independent organisations was never, ever complain about bullying verbally. Always do it in writing to the school. And keep your records of it.

Ask to see the school's anti bullying policy - which means that you can inform yourself as to what it is they should be doing. Some schools don't yet have one, or take the attitude that 'it doesn't happen in our school'. Which is ridiculous as it happens everywhere whether people see it or not.

And in our case the teachers didn't see it, and it went on for months.

In short, and sorry for the masculin metaphor, but when I dealt with hte last spate of bullying I had to literally 'grow some balls' as a mum. Speaking to the school in a meeting ranks as one of the most terrifying things i have ever done.

If you have a meeting, make sure it is minuted correctly as you will probably be very emotional about it and may not remember every detail afterwards.

Sounds obvious, but watch your language in said meeting as they can hold it against you..

Good to do such a meeting with a supportive partner (sounds like yours isn't being right now) but do it anyway.

And do it without delay. I don't mean to scare you but there was in previous years incidennt of suicide of a student due to bullying. So it can literally be life threatening for kids.

Insist that immediate action is taken and insist on a meeting ASAP.
Also needs to go in the minutes of such a meeting when the action will be reviewed (to make sure the problem is resolved).

Insist that the perpetrator is moved away from your child physically and that child receives emotional support. (emotional support for the perp is not our business and up to the school).

And then try to focus on the positive difficult in covid. And your child's strengths.

Wish you well. As others have said, doesn't sound like your partner is supportive so you are probably better off without one. As difficult as it is dealing with such issues as a single parent , I've grown into it and feel more confident about my ability to do so now.

If you need to talk to someone about it try Family Lives. Look on website. Used to be called Parentline. Just to add on Woman's hour this morning chief inspector of schools said some insightful things about how schools and parents should and can approach such really difficult issues.