S@“t has hit the fan. What would you do?

[Whotsithitthefan]

NC as outing. Long time poster.

I can’t sleep. DH had left. Sleeping in the car somewhere I think. DM here staying. DC being bullied at school and so is being a nightmare at home. Once he’s talked about what’s going on he’s fine but while he’s holding it all in, quite frankly, he’s a grumpy thug.

DH approach is long lectures. Reminding DC of past difficult behaviour. Criticising. Telling off. He takes it very personally when DC insults him or is rude to him. Won’t let it go.

I tend to try and listen first as there is always a context and then discuss the difficult behaviour once things are calm and I think DC can reflect.

Tonight DC was acting up. I stayed out of it as DH doesn’t like me taking over and finds it undermining if I offer a different approach. He wants me to back him up but I can’t because I feel like DC would then feel the whole world was against him/her and I don’t want to join in the critical lecture and when I do try and back DH up things just escalate anyway.

So I focused tonight on clearing up and left DH and DC to it. Meanwhile I don’t realise that DM is finding the way DH is talking to DC unbearable. She had told me earlier and I had a bit of a moan as I’m finding it hard.

I then hear really raised voices. DM shouting at DH that he is abusing DC with his criticism and domineering. She’s very upset. He’s really angry with her. DC joining in.

I stood between them and just repeated ‘time out’ over and over. DH kept going and going. When I kept saying time out DC would join in and told DH he’s a psycho. DH finally left and I managed to get DC calm and to sleep.

I’m in bed but can’t sleep as I can see it from all angles and have no clue what to do.

DC ‘full up’ emotionally and feeling particularly got at by DH. Deliberately pushes him because he knows he loses the plot and is testing him. The behaviours need addressing but also DC is a child and is overwhelmed at the moment.

DH is feeling blamed by me and unsupported by me. Feels like I get in the way of their relationship and turn DC against him because I’ll stick up for DC if I feel DH is out of order. I have been trying to stay out of it but it’s hard when it’s a child getting it in the neck. Tonight I stayed out of it apart from ‘time out’ when it was getting too heated. DH is sleeping in his car somewhere refusing to ever talk to my DM ever again. Wants us out of the house tomorrow at one point so he can change for work. Telling me I’m toxic and causing him MH issues (I can be quite critical to be fair) but I feel he’s the one whose being toxic to DC who should be the priority.

DM now in bits because she thinks she’s ‘ruined my life’.

Have today tried to be calm and have supported both DC and DM with their stuff. Feeling too cross with DH to support him much but am worried about him.

Feel like no one is supporting me. I hold the emotional stuff for them all but what about me? AIBU to wish there was someone in my life that was calm and steady to ‘hold’ things together.

How do I handle things tomorrow? I’ll have to do the school run so ‘brave face’ on. Then I know DM will be distraught. God knows if DH will get in touch.

Just needed to get this out and hope someone is awake and had some advice. I need to get some sleep.

@HaplotypeK how is it unhelpful?

It seems like OP hasn't quite grasped the gravity of the situation from her son's perspective.

Unlike my friend, her son is alive and despite what she believes she has the power to keep it that way.

Just because it's unpleasant does not make it unhelpful.

Weak, damaged, insecure, thinks everything is about him, takes things far too personally, temper hangs by a thread, reactive, pulls rank instead of earning respect.

This could not be more accurate as a description of the bullying parent I had (who exhibited many of the behaviours the OP describes in her DH).

Now that their DC have grown up it is their GC's behaviour that they take personally. They'll fly off the handle at an innocent remark from a 3 year old, even trying to 'have it out' with a toddler, without a shred of self awareness that this isn't how an adult should behave.

OP - this isn't going to go away, and he isn't going to mature out of it. This is how he is.

Only just read this and doubt I can add much to what has already been said, but my heart goes out to you.

There are echoes of my own marriage here, some similarities. I wish my mother had said something and stuck up for me....you are lucky. Keep your mother with you, she knows what is happening is wrong, your DH is a bully and your child only young.

I walked away from my marriage in the end and I should have done so sooner, for my sake and for my son's sake. As it was I waited until my son was in his teens and the damage to him, from his father's constant criticism, was terrible. Your son doesn't need all this.

Mediation?you could try for some professional help,all of you,to stop this right now.
Don't wait,try every avenue open to you so that this can be resolved.does your Dr surgery offer any help?or try women's aid,social services,citizens advice,child support,anywhere that might give you some support and guidance.💐🌈

“GelfBride

If so, separate. The whole issue will go away then. He can have the kids on his terms at his place and if they don't want to go - sorted!“

It is not so simple. The child doesn’t get a say. Children are made to see extremely abusive fathers by the courts.

DH monologues and lectures at DS and calls him names?

What names does he call him?

Mid primary?

FFS Op sorry but you need to stop mollycoddling your husband and tell him to start behaving like a grown man and father.

While I agree that parents need to present a united front regarding children that only works when the parenting is effective which your husband has clearly demonstrated the only thing hes doing is tormenting your already troubled son.

He needs to sort himself out and get his shit together because troubled little boys can become really dangerous men in the wrong hands.

Just how bad is the DC's behaviour?

Your DH sounds like he is parenting the only way he knows how, rather critically as it's what his own father did. That doesnt make it ok and it sounds like he needs reminding that the child is only primary age and to tone it back.

but I note one thing:

you mention you aren't always consistent in consequences etc.

Is it possible you are unintentionally pushing your DH to be "bad cop" by always assuming the "good cop" role? My sibling's partner does this. Does all the supportive chats but doesn't follow through on discipline. As a result child's behaviour has at times been pretty bad because they need boundaries and consequences, and my sibling has been forced to be the one imposing these. I've also had similar on an odd occasion with my partner and the frustration at feeling like I'm the only one taking the bad behaviour seriously can impact my approach - I'm aware of this though and so am careful not to overdo it.

[quote Couchbettato]@HaplotypeK how is it unhelpful?

It seems like OP hasn't quite grasped the gravity of the situation from her son's perspective.

Unlike my friend, her son is alive and despite what she believes she has the power to keep it that way.

Just because it's unpleasant does not make it unhelpful.[/quote]
You need to ask why suggesting that her primary-school-aged child is likely to kill themselves is unhelpful?

I was raised by a very critical father, my mum sometimes supported me, sometimes him. I have real problems with self esteem, self criticism and un achievable perfectionism. I KNOW it is mostly due to my upbringing ....and yet I STILL fall into the same bloody way of parenting if I don't watch myself constantly.. its like I'm scared of my child not being 'perfect' the same way I am scared of me not being 'perfect'... 2 of my 3 children are autistic, I am autistic..I am pretty sure my dad is autistic... im not saying your family has autism but deep seated fears and responses are VERY hard to shift. I suspect your DH is in a similar place. If he can recognise this, he can work on it. I am in therapy... and I have a very good relationship with my DH where he knows where I struggle and I have asked him to pull me up on it, but I'm often angry and resentful when he does..but this is due to my shame. We get through it by talking, apologising and being open.

If your husband is a good man I think you can get there, but it has to come from the 2 of you REALLY understanding each other and trusting each other. And accepting that you will both get it wrong, the way forward is to work through the mess communicating and respecting each other... which I think if you really really talk you probably can..

What a mess for you all . Your child is your priority and is literally a child being bullied by an adult! I actually think your mother most definitely did the right thing ,standing up to your bully of a husband! I hope you are ok .💐

[quote Librariesmakeshhhhappen]@HaplotypeK

Do you not watch the news? This is something I assume is common knowledge now, so we dont need to cite our sources when posting on mumsnet. Maybe I am mistaken and you genuinely are unaware, in which case I can understand why you think it is fear mongering with no basis. I'm not going to spend my morning educating you on suicide in youths, but the figure I last used when I wrote about this was that suicide in ages 10 to 18 increased by 60% between 2007 and 2018.
It has continued to follow that trend.

There are many risk factors, but bullying and an unhappy home life are very high on that list.

As I said, this is something all parents should be aware of. It is frightening and unpleasant, but it is important and certainly not unhelpful to be forewarned so parents can get help for their children when they begin to see the cracks.[/quote]
I don't throw around statistics, no.

And I don't need educating by you. Here are the actual figures for anyone who thinks you should have a bit more evidence than "it's common knowledge" and "don't you watch the news?"

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/datasets/suicidesintheunitedkingdomreferencetables

In the last year for which there are data, there were a total of 11 deaths by suicide in the 10-14 year age group. The OP's child is far more likely to die by falling down the stairs or being struck by lightning.

Your messages are gleeful and distasteful.

why did you move dcs school where he was popular to one where he is being bullied and excluded. Is there any chance he can change back or even just change again before more damage is done.

Im glad your partner knows that his approach is unhelpful, but I think probably your mum was right to intervene. A man throwing his weight around in an OTT critical way at a young child kind of does need undermining sometimes, otherwise the child believes that he is all these bad things. These are formative years.
Im sorry hes fallen out with your mum over it, but hes going to either have to get over that and make up with her, or this isnt going to work. He needs to do a lot of work on himself, and tbh, maybe he needs to do it elsewhere on his own, because this sounds quite toxic to live with

I also 30 years on have a very good relationship with my dad...who has just recently been able to say 'I'm sorry, I got it wrong, I thought I was doing the right thing to help you achieve but it wasn't was it ? ' it doesn't undo the hurt and the damage but it helps me understand that it didn't all come from a bad place.

@HaplotypeK

Why dont you apply some critical thinking to what you've been told before you continue stamping your feet and shouting that it's wrong to discuss something which is very real. Taboo subjects only make it easier for that thing to happen.

Upsetting and unpleasant it is, but it is also necessary and important for all parent's to be aware of the dangers, the causes, the warning signs. Seeing as the OP can barely being herself to see this as abuse, I doubt she has considered the linger term effects. It is good advice that she do so now.

Sorry op but you sound weak as fuck.

You are am apologist for your DH and DS gets thrown under a bus to do that

I don’t think your mother should apologise. She stood up for your very young child against what sounds like his abusive father whilst you stayed out of the way.

I had abusive parents, I can tell you your child will always remember what their grandma did for them.

but is giving a long but respectful lecture that the DC can’t get out of abuse?

When calling names is added it can be.
How is calling a child insolent respectful? It seems more like he has a rant, belittles the child and drags him down rather than a respectful lecture.

‘Your behaviour is unacceptable because of this, it has made me feel like that’ is a hell of a lot different than ‘you’re this that and the other’

Over time, males aged 10 to 24 years have always had the lowest rates. However, following a period of recent stability in the suicide rate for this group, in 2018 the rate increased significantly to 8.2 deaths per 100,000 males (440 deaths), and the rate has remained the same in 2019 (8.2) with 442 deaths.

There you go. From your own link.
I dont know why you're trying to argue that young men/boys are not at increasing risk? Whatd your agenda here?

Look at worldwide reports as well. Same story.

It's just something we should all be thinking about. When our child is in extreme stress, at school and at home, refusing to take any action to help them simply isnt acceptable for many reasons. Their mental health is one of those reasons.

@Whotsithitthefan

NC as outing. Long time poster.

I can’t sleep. DH had left. Sleeping in the car somewhere I think. DM here staying. DC being bullied at school and so is being a nightmare at home. Once he’s talked about what’s going on he’s fine but while he’s holding it all in, quite frankly, he’s a grumpy thug.

DH approach is long lectures. Reminding DC of past difficult behaviour. Criticising. Telling off. He takes it very personally when DC insults him or is rude to him. Won’t let it go.

I tend to try and listen first as there is always a context and then discuss the difficult behaviour once things are calm and I think DC can reflect.

Tonight DC was acting up. I stayed out of it as DH doesn’t like me taking over and finds it undermining if I offer a different approach. He wants me to back him up but I can’t because I feel like DC would then feel the whole world was against him/her and I don’t want to join in the critical lecture and when I do try and back DH up things just escalate anyway.

So I focused tonight on clearing up and left DH and DC to it. Meanwhile I don’t realise that DM is finding the way DH is talking to DC unbearable. She had told me earlier and I had a bit of a moan as I’m finding it hard.

I then hear really raised voices. DM shouting at DH that he is abusing DC with his criticism and domineering. She’s very upset. He’s really angry with her. DC joining in.

I stood between them and just repeated ‘time out’ over and over. DH kept going and going. When I kept saying time out DC would join in and told DH he’s a psycho. DH finally left and I managed to get DC calm and to sleep.

I’m in bed but can’t sleep as I can see it from all angles and have no clue what to do.

DC ‘full up’ emotionally and feeling particularly got at by DH. Deliberately pushes him because he knows he loses the plot and is testing him. The behaviours need addressing but also DC is a child and is overwhelmed at the moment.

DH is feeling blamed by me and unsupported by me. Feels like I get in the way of their relationship and turn DC against him because I’ll stick up for DC if I feel DH is out of order. I have been trying to stay out of it but it’s hard when it’s a child getting it in the neck. Tonight I stayed out of it apart from ‘time out’ when it was getting too heated. DH is sleeping in his car somewhere refusing to ever talk to my DM ever again. Wants us out of the house tomorrow at one point so he can change for work. Telling me I’m toxic and causing him MH issues (I can be quite critical to be fair) but I feel he’s the one whose being toxic to DC who should be the priority.

DM now in bits because she thinks she’s ‘ruined my life’.

Have today tried to be calm and have supported both DC and DM with their stuff. Feeling too cross with DH to support him much but am worried about him.

Feel like no one is supporting me. I hold the emotional stuff for them all but what about me? AIBU to wish there was someone in my life that was calm and steady to ‘hold’ things together.

How do I handle things tomorrow? I’ll have to do the school run so ‘brave face’ on. Then I know DM will be distraught. God knows if DH will get in touch.

Just needed to get this out and hope someone is awake and had some advice. I need to get some sleep.

Why are you allowing an outsider, ie your mother, to interfere in your family? Would you accept your MIL interfering? I'd get her out of there and then tackle the other problems.

Your DH needs to realise that your DC is being bullied at school AND being bullied at home. What did he think that's going to do to an eight year old?

Can he empathise at all? Can be put himself in the place of a child who is bullied in school and at his activities, and who then comes home to a (relatively new) home which also feels unsafe?

Does he know that his own mother feels the same as yours?

And yes, your mum shouldn't apologise.

Your last post, OP, mentions a lot of factors where you aren't perfect and need to work on yourself etc, almost inviting us to say 'ah well, if you're like that, then his behaviour is understandable. And of course it's all very well that you recognise areas in yourself aren't ideal. But what really strikes a dissonant note against all that is your constant concern, that's in evidence through all your posts, to placate, appease, manage your husband's feelings. Your original 'action plan' involved acceding to his outrageous demand (that you two vacate the house) in order to 'keep the peace', and even trying to get your mother to apologise to him. That tells me that he has you well-trained, tbh. As does your plan to speak to him in a 'kind but assertive' way.

Your little boy (and I repeat PPs as to how very little they really are at this age) sounds very mixed up. Some of his stubbornness and 'strong-willedness' will almost certainly be learned from his father - who is his role model for 'how men behave'. He will be puzzling over how, when he behaves like that, it doesn't win approval - his spirit doesn't sound yet quite broken enough (thank goodness) to understand that it's just a matter of acquiescing. But I fear he will learn that lesson from you sooner rather than later.

I'd get her out of there and then tackle the other problems.

So sticking up for your own grandchild is interfering? get her out of there she is family and has been invited for the week why should she leave because DH is acting like a brat?

You need to stop this belief that stepping in is 'undermining' your DH.

If your DH's way of discipline is abusive, to the point its 'horrible to watch' and your own mom felt the need to intervene, then he is doing it WRONG and you NEED to step in to protect your DC.

My ExH was like this, only he was angry/explosive, then fell to lecturing.. to the point my kids would flinch every time he raised his voice.. he tried the 'don't undermine me' shit when i would step in and tell him 'enough'.

The thing is, to step in, remove DC from the situation, let him calm down, and THEN deal with it in an appropriate manner so he isnt 'getting away with' anything that needs disciplining.

I left my ex, and part of it was because of his shouty/abusive handling of the kids, its my job as their mom to protect them, and that INCLUDES from their father if his behaviour is harmful/damaging to their development.

We've been separated a few years now, out of ex's 3 kids, one moved so far away they only have to do lip service at birthdays/xmas/fathers day and just post stuff to him, they rarely talk to him.
The teenager barely speaks to him and feels like everything they do wrong is their fault, and is getting to the point they will withdraw from contact (And are old enough to make that choice)
the youngest complains all he does is shout at them.

All i can do here, is create a safe, loving, understanding, supportive home, where they don't get shouted out, 'lectures' are only when necessary and AGE APPROPRIATE.

My DS is a teen, but has social/emotional difficulties, and the LAST way to handle his aggressive acting out of those emotions is with lecturing/shouting. He is sent to his room to calm down, hugged, we follow with a sensible, calm chat about his behaviour, and then sanctioned appropriately.

You need to make it clear to his DH that his discipline is inappropriate and that unless he puts a lid on in, you will step in, and he can, quite frankly, get the fuck over himself and piss off if he thinks its undermining him, its not, its protecting your DC from emotional abuse.

Honestly if my husband pulled this shit, which he wouldn’t, he’d do it once only, and he’d tell you that himself.

I simply don’t understand the instinct to stay out of it and not to protect yout child at all costs. It smacks of self preservation.

Literally hiding in the kitchen and not getting involved and your own mother has to step in as your husband is abusing your child. I can’t even begin to understand it. Is he abusive to you also op? Is that it?