S@“t has hit the fan. What would you do?

[Whotsithitthefan]

NC as outing. Long time poster.

I can’t sleep. DH had left. Sleeping in the car somewhere I think. DM here staying. DC being bullied at school and so is being a nightmare at home. Once he’s talked about what’s going on he’s fine but while he’s holding it all in, quite frankly, he’s a grumpy thug.

DH approach is long lectures. Reminding DC of past difficult behaviour. Criticising. Telling off. He takes it very personally when DC insults him or is rude to him. Won’t let it go.

I tend to try and listen first as there is always a context and then discuss the difficult behaviour once things are calm and I think DC can reflect.

Tonight DC was acting up. I stayed out of it as DH doesn’t like me taking over and finds it undermining if I offer a different approach. He wants me to back him up but I can’t because I feel like DC would then feel the whole world was against him/her and I don’t want to join in the critical lecture and when I do try and back DH up things just escalate anyway.

So I focused tonight on clearing up and left DH and DC to it. Meanwhile I don’t realise that DM is finding the way DH is talking to DC unbearable. She had told me earlier and I had a bit of a moan as I’m finding it hard.

I then hear really raised voices. DM shouting at DH that he is abusing DC with his criticism and domineering. She’s very upset. He’s really angry with her. DC joining in.

I stood between them and just repeated ‘time out’ over and over. DH kept going and going. When I kept saying time out DC would join in and told DH he’s a psycho. DH finally left and I managed to get DC calm and to sleep.

I’m in bed but can’t sleep as I can see it from all angles and have no clue what to do.

DC ‘full up’ emotionally and feeling particularly got at by DH. Deliberately pushes him because he knows he loses the plot and is testing him. The behaviours need addressing but also DC is a child and is overwhelmed at the moment.

DH is feeling blamed by me and unsupported by me. Feels like I get in the way of their relationship and turn DC against him because I’ll stick up for DC if I feel DH is out of order. I have been trying to stay out of it but it’s hard when it’s a child getting it in the neck. Tonight I stayed out of it apart from ‘time out’ when it was getting too heated. DH is sleeping in his car somewhere refusing to ever talk to my DM ever again. Wants us out of the house tomorrow at one point so he can change for work. Telling me I’m toxic and causing him MH issues (I can be quite critical to be fair) but I feel he’s the one whose being toxic to DC who should be the priority.

DM now in bits because she thinks she’s ‘ruined my life’.

Have today tried to be calm and have supported both DC and DM with their stuff. Feeling too cross with DH to support him much but am worried about him.

Feel like no one is supporting me. I hold the emotional stuff for them all but what about me? AIBU to wish there was someone in my life that was calm and steady to ‘hold’ things together.

How do I handle things tomorrow? I’ll have to do the school run so ‘brave face’ on. Then I know DM will be distraught. God knows if DH will get in touch.

Just needed to get this out and hope someone is awake and had some advice. I need to get some sleep.

He does the bulk of the child care and housework as he works far less at the moment for a variety of reasons not to do with him

Is THIS the crux of it?

Was the move to facilitate your job?

You say he was better, but has got worse recently - does that coincide with this scenario?

I suspect that its all very ego damaging for someone who sees manliness as provider/strong protector and views housework and child raising as 'womanly/emasculating' stuff

It takes a certain kind of man to be able to swap the roles. It really shouldnt, as there is no physical or mental reason why it cant be so, and indeed in many Scandinavian countries, its the norm to at least 50-50 it. But in the UK? things are changing, but for many they havent and they really find it hard to square the circle of how they feel, even if they know they shouldnt and dont want to.

But again, that is HIS issue to work on. Its just the fact that previous posts had you ssaying his ego is bashed by disrespect, so maybe its a bit fragile anyway, and the current changes have made it worse.

Not an excuse, indeed more of a reason for him to get himself to therapy

“Isadora2007

Why did your focus become relationship mending instead of your son and managing his behaviours? That seems to be the main issue“

It definitely can be the other way round: Child expresses the unresolved issues of parents.

That’s not to say that the bullying of DC and his/her response to it doesn’t need addressing.

I’ve just read your updates OP so further to my last message, and after wading through the excuses for your husband, Women’s Aid would likely suggest that you’re minimising.

@HaplotypeK

Why? Suicide in children and teens in on the rise. Ten and twelve year old kids have committed suicide, all after suffering bullying. It's a fact parents now really need to know and understand.

Here we have a child being bullied at school and bullied at home. Being constantly reminded of anytbing bad he has done, as if being blamed for why he is being bullied or being told he doesnt deserve any support. He's got an insane dad ranting and raving at him, and a mum who sits there and watched. Now his Gran has tries to help him, and his dad has turned into a proper fuckong psycho, screaming at everyone and leaving the house. What's the bet that dad is going to blame the son for this during one of his next lectures? I'm willing to bet pretty big that this will be added into the diatribe of things he throws in this child's face.

Suicide statistics might be scary and upsetting, but they are far from unhelpful. The OP really needs to consider how her son is going to turn out after years of this, and what he might do if he doesnt get some support and a safe place to live.

Same thing happened when I was at school. One of the boys committed suicide. We all knew he was being bullied at home, but we were kids and no adult stepped in to help him. It really affected me at school and its never left me, especially now that I have children quickly approaching the age he was when everything fell apart for him.

Ds only has you as his advocate. You do need to stick up for him. Tell dh what his own mother said to you.
Tell him that he’s only welcome back if he’s willing to change and listen to you if you need to intervene. He needs to accept that you intervening is necessary if he’s too caught up in the moment to not realise, and that he then can’t accuse you of not backing him up.

Your poor child. He's being bullied at school and at home by his dad. You have to stop him from doing this. It's bad, he will mentally break your child. Your mother was right to step in. Dont let him do this.

Your DC is FAR too young to be dealing with an overly critical parent with no back up from you - if I was your DM I absolutely would have spoken up for the child too. IMO your annoyance with her is entirely misplaced.

Everyone (his own mother included) seems to be doing far too much tiptoeing around your OH's fragile male ego. Let him sleep in his car - your focus should be on your DC and dare I say it, yourself. Please consider looking at the freedom programme.

[quote Librariesmakeshhhhappen]@HaplotypeK

Why? Suicide in children and teens in on the rise. Ten and twelve year old kids have committed suicide, all after suffering bullying. It's a fact parents now really need to know and understand.

Here we have a child being bullied at school and bullied at home. Being constantly reminded of anytbing bad he has done, as if being blamed for why he is being bullied or being told he doesnt deserve any support. He's got an insane dad ranting and raving at him, and a mum who sits there and watched. Now his Gran has tries to help him, and his dad has turned into a proper fuckong psycho, screaming at everyone and leaving the house. What's the bet that dad is going to blame the son for this during one of his next lectures? I'm willing to bet pretty big that this will be added into the diatribe of things he throws in this child's face.

Suicide statistics might be scary and upsetting, but they are far from unhelpful. The OP really needs to consider how her son is going to turn out after years of this, and what he might do if he doesnt get some support and a safe place to live.

Same thing happened when I was at school. One of the boys committed suicide. We all knew he was being bullied at home, but we were kids and no adult stepped in to help him. It really affected me at school and its never left me, especially now that I have children quickly approaching the age he was when everything fell apart for him.[/quote]
What 'statistics' would those be then? Didn't see any statistics in your post or the other one. Just gleeful drama queens upping the ante for their own entertainment while cruelly jibing at a parent in distress. Revolting.

Two things jumped out at me reading this,

The first is, as a child who was bullied at school and then had to put up with significant being got at at home, my only time off from people criticising me was the walk home from school and the couple of after school clubs where I got along with all the other kids there. Your DC needs a break. My self esteem was absolutely shot for a long time, only recovering a good decade into adulthood. Your son is very very young to be putting up with shit at school and at home on a regular basis.

The other is that your DH's behaviour is probably quite awful if your DM got to the point where she had to step in. It's very uncomfortable witnessing a child's self esteem being gradually eroded by someone in their own family unit. Chances are she's been holding her tongue for years. The fact that your DH then shouted in your mother's face in front of your child is grim.

So let me get this straight:

• You can see that the way your husband deals with your son is wrong
• Your (joint) counsellor can see that the way he deals with his son is wrong
• Your mum can see that the way that he deals with his son is wrong
• His mum can see that the way that he deals with his son is wrong.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck It's probably a damn duck.

Your husband is bullying your son - and I suspect both you and your DM too.

For god's sake don't go out of the house just so he can come back and get changed, what the hell would you pander to such childish behaviour from an adult?!? I'd expect a primary school child to be unable to de-escalate - I don't expect a grown man to be unable to de-escalate, that's absolutely unacceptable behaviour with you, your mum and your little son.

PLEASE make sure he doesn't drive a wedge between you and your mum - you're going to need that relationship more than ever.

The breakdown of your marriage seems inevitable doesn't it but the good news is that your son can finally have a primary home which is a safe place away from bullying, you won't have to walk on eggshells in your own home, and your son and his grandmother can continue to enjoy a healthy relationship.

Here's what I suggest that you do:

• Tell your knob head H you will put clothes outside for him if he is still sulking too much to be a grown up to his own wife. He can collect from your front porch at his leisure safe in the knowledge that you have no desire to interact with him until he can behave like a mature adult.

• Tell your mum that you can't do emotional labour for her at this time, and that you really need her support in the next few days in particular. Reassure her once that your husband's twattish behaviour is not her fault, it's his alone, and then agree between you that she is going to support you (as opposed to you her). Remind her that she has friends she can offload on to that are not as close in the situation, and give her your blessing to be able to talk about it with them (on the understanding that they don't gossip).

• Phone school and tell them, ask for their care team to give your son some extra support at school today and the next few days. Don't frame it as anything other than your son's dad's responsibility, but try to stick to cold hard facts. They had an argument and his dad slept in the car and is intending to not be back this evening. Your son is upset and could use some extra support. Ask if you like for their advice on how you handle it with your son when he gets home tonight.

Have a large cup of your favourite non alcoholic drink and breathe for 5 minutes. It's horrible and it's hard but you can do what is needed. xxx

Whatever happens please don’t let this become a supposition that DC has ADHD ASD etc

@HaplotypeK

Do you not watch the news? This is something I assume is common knowledge now, so we dont need to cite our sources when posting on mumsnet. Maybe I am mistaken and you genuinely are unaware, in which case I can understand why you think it is fear mongering with no basis. I'm not going to spend my morning educating you on suicide in youths, but the figure I last used when I wrote about this was that suicide in ages 10 to 18 increased by 60% between 2007 and 2018.
It has continued to follow that trend.

There are many risk factors, but bullying and an unhappy home life are very high on that list.

As I said, this is something all parents should be aware of. It is frightening and unpleasant, but it is important and certainly not unhelpful to be forewarned so parents can get help for their children when they begin to see the cracks.

Your dp has a parenting style which yourself, his mother, your mother, your child, your counsellor all find aggressive and counter productive. Therefore you don’t need to be ‘seeing the situation from all angles’, you need to protect your child from an aggressor.

Also, bullying a child at home because they’re being bullied at school is not ‘critical parenting’, it’s nuts.

"One thing I’m struggling with is the word ‘abuse’. DH’s behaviour might fall into that category at times (when he calls DS names for example) but is giving a long but respectful lecture that the DC can’t get out of abuse? It’s horrible to see and doesn’t work but is it abuse?"
OP I think it is. Not being able to get out of is the key for me- how does DH stop DS getting out of it. You've said it doesn't work so why do it, unless to exert power? And the name calling- no wonder your son resorts to name calling himself.
You are not undermining your DH - he is doing that to himself

Get hold of 'The Explosive Child' and 'How to talk to kids so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk'. Give them to your DH to read. He needs it from the source material, he's not going to listen to you.

So your DH cannot bear criticism himself but thinks the way to improve a child's behaviour is relentless criticism? Riiiighht

In fact your DH is a classic angry bully. Weak, damaged, insecure, thinks everything is about him, takes things far too personally, temper hangs by a thread, reactive, pulls rank instead of earning respect.

Your DM was right and I'm glad, for your DC's sake, that she was there, as you are in danger of prioritising your DH's 'inner child' over the actual child you are responsible for protecting.

Your DH could do with some time away and a lot of counselling, before he's grown-up enough to be a parent.

I understand you feeling like the only grown-up in this situation, with no-one there to look after you. It sounds as though that's been true for a long time though. Is your DM not capable of being supportive, rather than just exploding and flapping?

Gentle suggestion to the people discussing suicide to please not use the term "committed suicide." It is a relic from the days when suicide was a crime and has unhelpful connotations around blame. The word suicide without the word committed is still widely used and fine in itself, and the term "killed themselves" is a less loaded replacement.

(and I think somebody mentioning that a child killed themselves after being in a situation where both home and school life was hard for the child is both relevant to the thread and accurate).

@78percentLindt

"One thing I’m struggling with is the word ‘abuse’. DH’s behaviour might fall into that category at times (when he calls DS names for example) but is giving a long but respectful lecture that the DC can’t get out of abuse? It’s horrible to see and doesn’t work but is it abuse?" OP I think it is. Not being able to get out of is the key for me- how does DH stop DS getting out of it. You've said it doesn't work so why do it, unless to exert power? And the name calling- no wonder your son resorts to name calling himself. You are not undermining your DH - he is doing that to himself

Agreed. It's extended punishment that the child is unable to escape, and is proven to result in learnt helplessness, a desperately sad state of mental health where the victim just gives up because nothing they can do can end the situation. Have a read up about learnt helplessness, it's a very bad situation. The bully probably thinks it's submission to authority and that they have won, but they've totally fucked over their child in the process.

Oh that poor wee boy! Regarding your husband, they’re all out of step but our Joe. (A mother watching her son march completely out of time in a parade, ‘look at them! All out of step but our Joe!’) and that’s your husband. You, the counsellor, your mother, his mother….all saying the same thing! What does this say to you?

I think I remember your previous posts about this man. Although I thought your mum lived next door. He was a bully who chased his young DS into his room and terrified him, your DH constantly tells you that your the problem as you undermine him.

He is an abusive bully, your poor DC is being bullied at school and home with a mother who stands back and says nothing. All you go on about is bettering yourself and your DH doing online classes. What are you both doing for your DC? What emotional support is he getting? As for abusive, perhaps educate yourself as to what that is, have a look on childline, oh and perhaps thank your mum for stepping in to protect her grandchild.

@IAmAWomanNotACis

Gentle suggestion to the people discussing suicide to please not use the term "committed suicide." It is a relic from the days when suicide was a crime and has unhelpful connotations around blame. The word suicide without the word committed is still widely used and fine in itself, and the term "killed themselves" is a less loaded replacement.

(and I think somebody mentioning that a child killed themselves after being in a situation where both home and school life was hard for the child is both relevant to the thread and accurate).

That was me, duly noted.

Can see your point entirely. Will relearn how to rephrase it.

Calling a child names is pretty clear cut abuse. I had a parent who did that, and as an adult I can't even comprehend doing it.

Lectures can be part of normal parenting, but how frequent are they? Repeatedly dragging up past misdemeanours and throwing them in the child's face is not just pointless but cruel. And for a primary age child....?!

How would he like to have every minor transgression raked over in this way? It's teaching the child that they will never be able to move past the petty misdemeanour of 2 years ago, so what's the point of even trying.

Again I've experienced this (I was still being guilt tripped about childhood misbehaviour well into adulthood) and it's horrible. You wouldn't do it to a colleague or a friend, so why is it ok to inflict that on a child?

And it is bullying for sure. He does it to a small child who isn't in a position to defend themselves or escape. That's the definition of bullying.

@Aquamarine1029

Your husband is a bully. Why are you allowing your child to be terrorised like this? Your home sounds like a battleground, and I think you all would be much happier if you ended the marriage.

This

So your mother, the counsellor and you, at one stage, found your DH abusive. But now he's worn you down enough that you want him to change.

Seriously, end your marriage for the sake of your child and for you. And get your son some counselling so he can insert boundaries and be supported for them when he is being bullied.

My father did long bullying lectures too, from us being small children. We were also blamed for his life going wrong. There's a reason none of us have anything to do with him as adults.

Your husband has deep seated anger issues by the sounds of it. But that really shouldn't be your sons problem.