Is DH controlling or am I permissive?

[ReluctantNeatFreak]

Sorry for long post (I'm a long-time lurker also) but I'm at my wit's end - my DH and I are on the brink of separation over our difference in parenting styles. It feels like there is lots worth saving in the marriage and I don't think any of us (me, DH, DD14, DD13) would be happy with separation, but I can't take any more days like this.

Our teenage girls do have a tendency to have messy bedrooms, leave their stuff around the house, don't eat enough fruit/veg, often prioritise seeing their mates in spare time rather than choosing to get homework/chores done first, bicker with each other, sometimes act resentfully towards parents and need to be asked several times before they get stuff done.

However, they get good grades and reports from school, have been chosen as patrol leaders in scouts, do chores like cleaning bathrooms, doing laundry, dishwashers and mowing lawns before they get any pocket money, and are usually articulate, funny, positive-minded, passionate, thoughtful of others, and (I think) generally good kids.

I feel like the negative stuff above is typical teenage stuff, and I have a 'coaching' style where I try to get them to behave better through regular prompting and encouragement, praising good behaviour and verbal admonishment when they have really let themselves down, etc. I very rarely raise my voice or give out punishments (reserved for lies and deceit, utterly unkind behaviour etc).

My DH believes that behaviours like the messy room or not eating healthily should result in sanctions (sometimes arbitrary or instant) like losing their phone for a day, banned from TV, being grounded for a day, having monitoring and checklists put in place and often shouts when he sees things that are below par or if his instructions aren't explicitly followed. If the girls (or I) protest and an argument ensues, it almost always ends up in him locking himself in his room and refusing to speak to the three of us for hours.

He thinks I undermine him and never hold the children to account. I think he's trying to exert control over teenagers in a way which makes them want to rebel more. We have a day of rows or not speaking at least once a fortnight, and this has gone on for years. The children are stressed, miserable and confused on these days.

DH is a very well-intentioned and loving Dad, but this situation is now degenerating so that they hardly ever have cuddles or chats now without him sniping or being critical and the girls retreating moodily. I feel like I'm walking on eggshells amongst them.

I honestly can no longer tell if I'm right (and he is overly strict) or if he's right (and the children would grow up with terrible life-damaging habits if he didn't teach them these lessons) and need outside opinions please.

Please let me know - YABU (DH is being a great parent and I am too permissive), YANBU (DH is being overly controlling and needs to enjoy his teenagers company more before they leave home).

@FluffyT youre his mother though? It's your job to protect him from this sort of stuff isn't it? I don't want to pile on or anything but why are you being so passive here? Do you want your son treated like this?

Stop colluding in the mistreatment of your child and get rid of your partner

@FluffyT

So he is abusive and terrorising you too?

Your poor son.

He will be out the door as soon as he can and eventually he will wonder why you allowed it.

Seek help from SS or advice from Woman's aid about how tonhelp your child.

My dd sounds EXACTLY like yours. I don't stress about her eating, but make sure she takes a multi vitamin and she has fruit and veg in her lunchbox. With regards to her room, it's has to be tidy one morning a week (this is mostly due to the fact I have a cleaner once a week).

Your dh needs to pick his battles, if your dc are good at school and (mostly) polite at home then who cares if their room is a mess.

It's so sad that your dc have stopped showing affection due to your dh. It's more important to have an emotional connection and your dc feel it's ok to show affection and emotions than have a tidy room.

Christ alive when we had messy rooms as teens my parents’ only punishments were no penny sweets, and making endless hilarious jokes about burglars having ransacked the joint. Pretty sure I lived off jammy crumpets from 13-18. We all eat vegetables now, and keep tidy houses, and have a close relationship. The boundary was: we didn’t mess up shared areas (kitchen, sitting room, etc), and “stuff” was sharply dumped in piles on the stairs or straight into our messy rooms.

Who cares if their bedrooms are pigsties? That’s their lookout. There are worse things than mess, like bullying and controlling, which your DH is.

Marriage therapy - you need to discuss this 1. together without the kids around and 2. find a solution you can both live with. It would probably be a good idea to do it with a therapist around to help you discuss it together.

My mum was untidy, I'm untidy and now my kids are untidy, who cares. We're all happy, I'm successful at work, kids are doing great at school, sport, all the important things, a bit of mess in the grand scheme of things means nothing. My DP is more of a neat freak than me, we keep communal areas tidy (mostly for him) and I've definitely got better since I was a teenager / in my 20's but really, he doesn't know how luck he is by the sound of it with your kids.

My DH believes that behaviours like the messy room or not eating healthily should result in sanctions (sometimes arbitrary or instant) like losing their phone for a day, banned from TV, being grounded for a day, having monitoring and checklists put in place and often shouts when he sees things that are below par or if his instructions aren't explicitly followed. If the girls (or I) protest and an argument ensues, it almost always ends up in him locking himself in his room and refusing to speak to the three of us for hours.

tell him the next time he locks himself in his room and refuses to speak to his family, you will be removing his phone privileges and grounding him for a day. How does he like them apples? Also start monitoring what he eats - see if he likes that.

He is an awful parent. My youngest is 19 - we have three very different children - and we never punished for stupid shit like messy rooms/wanting to see friends/ not eating properly etc. Who is stupid enough to think that punishment for that actually works?

actually we tried not to punish at all as a relationship built on punishment is not likely to be kind and supportive. even a dimwit could see that. If you could see the father's day cards my three wrote to their father yesterday. They said nothing about making us clean our rooms but there was lots of writing about inspiration to be a better man/constant happiness/admire and treasure/lucky to have you

I could not live with someone like this. I bet your daughters feel the same.

Exactly, I don't punish mine, I don't shout, have never grounded, removed phones from either of my kids and I couldn't be prouder of them, despite their messy rooms! Modelling the kind of behaviour you want to see is the way to go, respect for others, listening to others view points, politeness and not sulking and being petty being key ones for me!

Your dh didn’t have a father figure and I think that is significant as he didn’t learn what a father should be. It sounds as if he’s obsessed with doing it better and doing it right. Yet his approach is that of a child, who is out of their depth. IE The way to control big, scary stuff is to micromanage. But he’s a grown man and this is all very controlling and manipulative. In his head he has set about how it should be done with no thought to the needs of your individual children.

You cannot change him. Only your reaction to his behaviour and how he is. Totally let him go and stay away for a few nights. This sounds like a good thing. Perhaps he will take the time to reflect upon his behaviour. That won’t be an overnight thing. But if he sees life running smoothly, he may pause for reflection.

My dd is a feisty child. No way would I be punishing for these things. I also like natural consequences. They are learning moments. You’re ahead of me in some areas with what your dcs do around the house. My dd, however, is naturally tidy. Even if she weren’t, arbitrary sanctions without warning are not the answer.

I think you should definitely get some therapy for yourself. It will help you to find clarity and a way forward. Right now he’s very good at winning the argument with you.

I see many threads on Mumsnet with people complaining about their partners having habits like your teens. Messiness, leaving their stuff lying around, eating shit, prioritising fun over responsibility etc. As parents it's your responsibilty to teach them good behaviour to take into adulthood with them. Your husband sounds like he realises this but is going about it cackhandedly. I think it's very damaging that you openly undermine him. It should be a team effort but instead it's you 3 vs him. He knows it, your teens know it. I'm not surprised he walks away.

He sounds a nightmare tbh. I do like my DD to keep her room tidy but don't go nuts over it, I just don't let it affect anyone else. She knows she isn't allowed friends round if her room is a tip (doesn't have to be perfect but if it smells or looks ransacked then noone should be subjected to it but her). She loves having her friends round so that generally works. She also shares with DSD so when she is coming, DD is expected to properly clean the room and make it look presentable as its not fair for DSD to have to stay in a hovel. I've stopped her eating in there as I'm fed up of mouldy stinking plates and cups suddenly appearing in the kitchen, so thats solved the worst of the problem. Teenagers are gross though and thats just a fact unfortunately

I didn't vote because you are a family and taking sides is not healthy and part of the problem. Your solution is simple - go see a family therapist who will work through this issues with you all and give some much needed balance back into your family life. Or if you can't afford that go on a parenting course together - the council can offer free courses. Your husband will see in one or two sessions that his parenting approach needs to be updated.

I think your husband has always been controlling towards you some of the time. Often men like this struggle with their children, especially daughters, becoming teenagers with their own opinions. They are no lo get pliable little girls.
I think your husband’s behaviour and beliefs are so entrenched things won’t really get better until you separate.

It doesn’t sound as if he likes, let alone loves you, at all.

You say he doesn’t want to split up - and I’m sure he doesn’t.

But maybe ask him why? He seems to see you as a deeply flawed, incapable, sub-standard, deficient person.

That being the case, wouldn’t he be much happier living separately from you?

This is what I don’t get about these bullying, controlling men. They give an absolutely amazing impression of absolutely detesting and disrespecting the woman they supposedly love. But it doesn’t seem to even occur to them to end the relationship and move on.

So what does that tell you?

Maybe ask him why he wants to stay. Why does he want to be with you? What does he see as your good points? Does he still love you? Yes? Well, it doesn’t seem like it.

Get him to do a bit of explaining. And maybe even some thinking.

Because this is absolutely deal-breaker territory. It very much reads as if you’d BOTH be much happier apart.

My father was a controlling authoritarian, my childhood was awful due to him and it has affected my life and adult relationships. I have been no contact for 3 years and I finally feel free of him.

You sound like a wonderful mum. Your husbands way of life is no way for young women to live.

I have a little sympathy for the messy room thing so here is my tactic:

I do help them and I do make them leave their room tidy before they leave for school (everything up off the floor and beds made). I struggle with organisation (as does one of my kids) and I simply CAN'T be organised in mess, and neither can he. So that is my rule. But I never let their rooms get into a state. Or rather I never allow them to let their rooms to get into a state. I do a quick check most mornings and call them back in "put that dirty stuff in the clothes basket/hang it up and put those shoes away and make the bed, hang up your towel". That sort of stuff. Their rooms are rarely pristine but they are generally pretty tidy. I also allow nothing but water in bedrooms. It's something that just doesn't work if you let their rooms get into an absolute state. I find if they just spend 5 minutes every couple of days sorting out their stuff it's fine.

I know a messy room is typical teenager stuff but honestly it isn't much to ask. I provide them with clean clothes and a wardrobe, it's just not on for them to take off their perfectly clean clothes and leave them on the floor in a mess only for them to chuck them in the washing machine days later.

They can't smell their own yucky room so I'll generally open a window for a few hours some evenings and I will also give their rooms a good tidy every couple of weeks or so. Even the messiest kid likes to come home to a neat-as-a-pin bedroom. It's a joint effort.

As an aside, this has done wonders for my kids' skin. they use it 3 or 4 times a week.

theordinary.deciem.com/gb/rdn-salicylic-acid-2pct-masque-50ml.html

I leave kids to be responsible for their own rooms, tidy or not

Thanks - really useful to read all of this. I am resolved and told him last night that this can't go on - it's damaging our girls, and unless we can find a way to communicate better and agree how to parent then we should split. I also told him on Sunday that his critical, unpredictable, controlling and sulky behaviour was the reason that his relationship with the girls had broken down, not my undermining (I would call it protective) behaviour. He took last night's ultimatum in silence. When I asked for his thoughts, he said he'll think about it. I'm going to tell him I need to hear his thoughts by end of today.

He is keeping out of my way (occasional statement in sad but resigned tone) although being pleasant with the children, and he did fix a sink that broke last night so not being a passive-aggressive arse.

I do worry that the girls will see it as me getting myself out of the toxic household while they still have to suffer it 50% of time (and without my, albeit fairly limited, protection). And also worry that they'll blame themselves as they see the arguments always triggered by their 'bad behaviour'. I don't want to demonise DH as I genuinely hope they have a good relationship with both of us in the long term, but will obviously try to explain that it's DH's bad behaviour combined with big differences in our attitudes to parenting that are the issue.

@fiercebarry I did ask him why he wants to stay with me as its clear he doesn't actually like me for a fair amount of the time, and he said - 'to keep the family together of course'. I think it's telling that when I suggested one of us getting a rented property for 6 months round the corner and seeing how it felt living apart, his first thought was that family and friends would see that we were having issues and it would therefore be difficult to put it in reverse. I agree that his Mum will be all over it, creating extra drama and thinking she's needed to come in and act as mediator and saviour, which will wind us both up. But perhaps it speaks more of his ultimate goal of needing to be seen as having won at life.

I’ve read your full thread and think your approach to living through the teenage years with your children is what I would like to emulate if I were back in that position again. I picked up something from your recent post and felt I wanted to comment that as your children are teenagers they will vote with their feet. If their father makes life when they are with him unpleasant your girls will choose to spend more time with you, where they are happy and respected as the young adults they are developing into. Because of that, 50/50 residency is not likely to happen. I wish you well and I, for one, think you are an admirable mother, who is attempting to give her children the best for what is a very important time in their lives.

[quote ReluctantNeatFreak]@fiercebarry I did ask him why he wants to stay with me as its clear he doesn't actually like me for a fair amount of the time, and he said - 'to keep the family together of course'. I think it's telling that when I suggested one of us getting a rented property for 6 months round the corner and seeing how it felt living apart, his first thought was that family and friends would see that we were having issues and it would therefore be difficult to put it in reverse. I agree that his Mum will be all over it, creating extra drama and thinking she's needed to come in and act as mediator and saviour, which will wind us both up. But perhaps it speaks more of his ultimate goal of needing to be seen as having won at life.[/quote]
Well honestly that would be my answer to the relationship really being dead.

OP,
Your girls will choose to spend very little time with him and there is nothing he can do about it.

If you split the girls will have a peaceful main residence.

Most likely they will only tolerate an evening with him, without sleep over.

But he may buck up and things could improve and the relationship with them would calm down.

He's domineering and you are nervous of his mother sticking her oar in?

You need to get away and around the corner is NOT a good idea.

Move a decent distance so popping in is out of the question.

From what you've said there is no way your girls would want to be with their dad 50% of the time. They would have a nice, peaceful, happy home with you and hopefully won't spend enough time there to get into a battle over vegetables and mess

At 13 and 14 they do have far more of a say and I think their feelings should and will be taken into account. They wont want 50% so dont make them. IF it is over he needs to build up a relationship with them slowly

If you are separating because of his treatment of his daughter's and the girls state they do not want to be with him I find it very hard to believe they will not be listened to.